No Land 3

I hardly worked any overtime my first year, maybe six days. I only had one month where I was paid 64 hours and that was because I was lost in the system. Every other month working within my 16 day footprint I would average 90 hours. By the end of the year(Jan 1st to end of December), my income totalled over 130k gross including perdiem which was around 1100 a month. Most people report the same experience, and those who take full advantage of OT can easily see 150 to 160k. We are a happy pilot group.

b707guy

How about comparing apples with apples. ATI (ABX, too, for that matter) has exactly zero true wide body long haul business. And, at least for now, K4's 767 business is very similar to ATI's. So, how many K4 767 pilots are breaking 64 hours per month without working a day off?


Couple of factors affecting first year pay.


K4 is on DOS+1, and will be on DOS+2 before long. ATI is on DOS. Advantage: K4


K4 uses a training pay plan. ATI starts at full pay from day one.
Advantage: Long term (1 year) K4. Short term, ATI, unless your personal financials can tolerate training pay for a few months.


Life after OE.


K4 has 14 days off minimum out of 30 (max of 16 days on). ATI has 12 days off minimum out of 28 (also a max of 16 days on, but in a shorter "month").
Advantage: Slightly to K4, on paper. But ATI has at least one, and in many cases, two, travel days included in those days on for the non-reserve lines of time. So if you want to look at it from an availability for duty viewpoint, ATI really has 13 or 14 days off, depending on where you live versus what/where you bid to fly. That'sa minimum! Before lines that have 13 or 14 actual days off, and, yes, there are quite a few. On top of that, if an ATI pilot works on one of those travel days, which, again, isn't one of the minimum 12 days off, he gets paid for it. So, without working a single day off, an ATI 757/767 pilot can make up the difference between a K4 pilot's 767 pay. That's today.



Longer range.


K4 offers an advantage from the start, thanks to marginally higher rates, and that they will be on DOS+2 before ATI hits DOS+1, and the likelihood of being assigned the 747 (a prize in itself for many) with pretty much guaranteed overtime.


But if you don't want to spend your life on the other side of the planet, or if you generally prefer domestic or short overseas trips, or whatever your personal needs call for, then life as an ATI 757/767 pilot is pretty much an exact copy of a K4 767 pilot. At least for now. Who knows what the future holds? As I said in another post, better in some ways, not so much in others. But when you iron out the wrinkles, we're on the same level.


And in the end, apples to apples, ATI reaches real-time pay parity with K4 after our DOS+3.



Right now, today, all else being equal, if I were applying to both airlines, and was offered a job at both with similar class dates, and could deal with a 747 life, then K4 wins easily. Right now. The biggest difference is that Connie creates his future. The rest of us seem to be saddled with being able to do what the present provides. Blunt enough?


ATI has managed to survive over the years, despite its best efforts otherwise. Nothing is guaranteed. But if we do keep chugging, pictures of life in the 767 at ATI and at K4 are nearly interchangeable. I'm not trying to sell anyone anything. There are warts and silver linings at both places. The only ones who can't and won't see that are the handful of noisemakers here.

Wayst

Anyone can make great money with OT but being gone an entire month from family is not fun. How do you fly that many hours in a 16 day period when the legal part 121 allowance is 30 flight hours in a 7 day period?

LRSRanger

Thanks. That's a great breakdown. Seems like the ATI guys are the only ones here trying to educate. Telling.

abxflyr

Just out of curiosity...what is there to educate? You want to know more about the K4 or ATI contract (or current book ABX)?? Download one if you are a member of 1224 or ALPA and review it. Else ask a buddy for a copy, nothing is top secret or requires educating....unless you're unable or unwilling to figure it out yourself.

Overall 707's post was good although it has inaccuracies (or maybe a better way to say it would be "different view") depending on what angle you are coming from.

Just for a simple example..days off.
K4 - 14/30 (14*12=168 off/year) ATI - 12/28 (12*13=156 days off/year) [ATI has a 13 bid cycle/year for those who do not know]. A 12 day difference or what could be a half a month or more of work, again based on view. We all know individualistically, i.e. position/seat, vacation, where you live, luck, etc.... one's mileage will vary. Not meant to be pro or con, you be the judge of that.

Interesting how the thread drift is massive...and the professionalism displayed....well, I'll say no more except it is entertaining!

Ok, so when was the next upgrade class at ABX again...(lol)

Lockheed

Look I agree that I like my days off - that wasn't the question was it?

the question was how do you make that much money?


FYI K4 is supplemental - there is no such thing as 30 in 7
we always fly with 1CA and 2FO's at a minimum
which means that we can do 120 hrs in 30 days

also understand that we get a fair amount of soft time
unlike some others we get paid to position and paid for reserve

so ya in 16 days its easy to get 100 hrs pay
85 hard time 15 soft
ya know many of our legs are 10 hrs +
doesn't take many of those to add up

b707guy

Nothing I said is inaccurate, so I'll go with the "different view", or perhaps, "could have been more complete" approach.


If, for instance, you live near CVG and can hold the CVG DHL lines (there are only 8 lines, but they usually tend to go more junior), you'll enjoy 14 or 15 days off out of every 28, depending on whether or not you're on a split line. That comes to between 182 or 195 days off for the calendar year, depending on whether you bounce between "normal" and split lines throughout the year.


A lot of our Amazon lines start in ABE, DFW, ONT, SMF, or SEA. A few in TPA or PHX. Of those, many end in the same place that they started. Some end elsewhere. But, either way, if you live near any of those cities, you'll also generally enjoy 13 of 28 days off, or 169 for the year. More in many cases.



As far as downloading available CBAs... reading someone's unfamiliar CBA and being able to figure out how it actually works are two different animals. Talking with someone about how it works in real life is generally helpful in getting "educated". On the other had, someone who comes here to spew misinformation because someone doesn't want to be correct and does want to create a negative impression is intolerable (not aimed at you at all, flyr!).

goinaround

Taking a job in the ACMI sector thinking that current routes will have you laying over at home is foolish. Routes are constantly shifting. If you want to be home every night....work for Allegiant and move to your base.

b707guy

Absolute truth. Pick your poison.

vroll1800

A few things, FAJ.

1) ABX 1224 crafted the concessionary contract not to undercut Astar, but to be more able to get additional non-DHL flying and thus mitigate the effect of SEVERE DHL downsizing and furloughs. That was a key driver.

2). Not all of the nifty 50 gorged themselves on open flying.


In retrospect, I'm not sure how much, if any, good that did as ABX management has not been very adept at drumming up non DHL/Amazon business. But there it is.

Re Post #41 (nfd)- A few years ago, I asked a key architect of the 09 contract how he was doing.(He was a furloughee.) He replied that he's getting his top line choices, but that it really didn't matter much as the lines mostly sucked. Oh, the irony of it.