Amazon expansion thread
10-17-2021, 11:35 AM
#71
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2019
Posts: 147
Originally Posted by nitefr8dog
Did you read the post? The airplanes JH promised to ATI were initially supposed to come from ABX. ABX scope prevented that....have some hair on ur a$$ and fight for our contract or stand with ur pants around ur ankles? Either way we would lose aircraft. What ABX never did was sign a deal to pull aircraft and flying from a sister company. ATI's isldea of "playing the long game" was to f#@k ABX by agreeing to delay negotiations for 2 yrs with a Captains only pay raise in exchange for ABX aircraft. As far as ATI's " unmatched reliability" that's not what Amazon reports to ATSG.
10-17-2021, 11:37 AM
#72
Retired Doug herder
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Position: Former DC8 73 Capt DHLAirways/Astar. Retired
Posts: 424
Originally Posted by nitefr8dog
ABX didn't sign a horible contract to get ALL the promised flying if they did from the sister companies. They also did not agree to NOT negotiate a new contract for 2 years and pay raise for Captains only in exchange for additional aircraft which were supposed to come from ABX stock. ABX would not give up the aircraft with scope protection....management got ****ed off and violated the contract. We struck We tried to convinceATI to negotiatefor better retirement, better disability, schedule protection etc. They wanted to capture all the flying as promised if they agreed to a money only contract.. Learn the facts before you post.
10-17-2021, 06:41 PM
#73
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: Always Fly With Favorite Captain
Posts: 376
Originally Posted by hvydriver
As a former DHLAirways/Astar guy nitefr8dog, all I have to say is this. You reap what you sow. How’s that working out for you? You guys didn’t want to work together when the Panzers first came over the hill, AND negotiated a reduced contract with ATSG. I’m not going to bother getting into an argument about all of this. Anyone who wants to educate themselves on that can search the posts from years ago. Since I’m retired now, I don’t have a dog in the hunt anymore. But it sickens me to watch you disparage the ATI guys, when (if your allegations are true, which I don’t believe they are) you fine examples of Faith and Virtue started the race to the bottom with DHL years ago. I’m gonna go back to not posting for years again now. My work here is done.
About your "panzers coming over the hill" metaphor: As I recall, prior to DHL buyout of Airborne Freight in 2003, ABX had 17% of the US express freight market, DHL Airways 2%. I seem to recall that DHL scope suit sought to have all domestic DHL flying done by Astar, including the ~ 116 aircraft fleet routes that ABX bought to the table. All that was going to be transferred to the ~ 40 aircraft Airways/Astar fleet. Vote ourselves out of our jobs, no thanks.
Any way you slice it, the DHL debacle was bad for both pilot groups with DHL royally screwing up their entry into the US market. They went from having turn key access to ~19% of the US express market in 2003, declining to 9% in 2007 (due to operational screwups), to retreating back to their pre merger footprint in 2008 - 2009 time frame. That is one turd that I won't even try to polish.
Last edited by vroll1800; 10-17-2021 at 06:45 PM. Reason: additional comments
10-17-2021, 06:47 PM
#74
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,809
Originally Posted by vroll1800
hvydriver, I'm retired too. After a day of (non)creative loafing, I feel obligated to make some corrections to your post. First of all, ABX did not vote in the concessionary 2009 contract to undercut Astar for DHL business, but to better enable ABX to be competitive in securing non - DHL contracts. Recall that DHL severely downsized their US footprint in 2008, eventually resulting in the furlough of over 60% of the ABX pilot group. Seeing that furloughed pilots were allowed to vote on the contract, it had to give ABX a fighting chance to secure more business beyond the scope of DHL, and hopefully result in more recalls. Sadly this did not occur to any great degree, as ATSG was more inclined to dry lease aircraft to bottom feeder airlines rather than seek additional flying opportunities for the ABX crew force. ABX lack of an effective sales force didn't help matters much either.
About your "panzers coming over the hill" metaphor: As I recall, prior to DHL buyout of Airborne Freight in 2003, ABX had 17% of the US express freight market, DHL Airways 2%. I seem to recall that DHL scope suit sought to have all domestic DHL flying done by Astar, including the ~ 116 aircraft fleet routes that ABX bought to the table. All that was going to be transferred to the ~ 40 aircraft Airways/Astar fleet. Vote ourselves out of our jobs, no thanks.
Any way you slice it, the DHL debacle was bad for both pilot groups with DHL royally screwing up their entry into the US market. They went from having turn key access to ~19% of the US express market in 2003, declining to 9% in 2007 (due to operational screwups), to retreating back to their pre merger footprint in 2008 - 2009 time frame. That is one turd that I won't even try to polish.
About your "panzers coming over the hill" metaphor: As I recall, prior to DHL buyout of Airborne Freight in 2003, ABX had 17% of the US express freight market, DHL Airways 2%. I seem to recall that DHL scope suit sought to have all domestic DHL flying done by Astar, including the ~ 116 aircraft fleet routes that ABX bought to the table. All that was going to be transferred to the ~ 40 aircraft Airways/Astar fleet. Vote ourselves out of our jobs, no thanks.
Any way you slice it, the DHL debacle was bad for both pilot groups with DHL royally screwing up their entry into the US market. They went from having turn key access to ~19% of the US express market in 2003, declining to 9% in 2007 (due to operational screwups), to retreating back to their pre merger footprint in 2008 - 2009 time frame. That is one turd that I won't even try to polish.
10-21-2021, 04:02 PM
#76
Not a real airline pilot
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jul 2016
Position: Cargo > Pax
Posts: 365
10-21-2021, 06:32 PM
#77
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,809
Originally Posted by goinaround
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/9742-narcissistic-personality-disorder
Maybe this will help you....
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/healt...955-micropenis
10-21-2021, 08:05 PM
#78
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2015
Posts: 221
Argue over the details all you want, but theres a pretty big difference between voting in a concessionary contract when 60% of your pilot group is on furlough and the economy is in a near depression with the company near bankruptcy.... and voting in a bottom tier contract in one of the fastest growing markets for a parent company that just signed one of the most lucrative ACMI contracts probably ever just to steal flying from your sister company ..... I mean, come on.
10-22-2021, 08:32 AM
#79
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Semi-Retired...
Posts: 3,127
As long as you keep fighting with each other, the company wins.
Each pilot group will eventually do what is best for themselves. That is the nature of this business model. It isn't like AA, Delta or United, you do not own your flying and in most cases don't even own your planes, they're leased from ATSG-CAM.
You can't tell an AA pilot to take concessions or we'll give your flying to Delta. The business model ATSG and many ACMI rely on is being able to shift the flying to any of their subsidiary companies at will. As long as they can do that, then you can only fight for so long before all your flying has been transferred and the furlough-layoff-shutdown notice comes. Then add into the mix the customer shopping around for the lowest bid and it exasperates the downward pressure.
The real story is the RLA is broken. It was written at a time that never envisioned the outsourced business model in use at the regional industry or in the ACMI industry. None of the labor unions want to try to fix it either. There was a move in 2014 at the ALPA National BOD meeting to have the ALPA-PAC make updating the RLA to be commensurate with modern business practices. That resulting in the Legislative Affairs subcommittee going into prolonged executive session while a 3.5 hour parade of ALPA lawyers one by one gave little speeches why doing that was a bad idea. It all boiled down to two things.
1 - If the unions get to make changes to the RLA, managements will be right there pushing for their changes
2 - The union lawyers have had these laws, rules, regulations, arbitrations, and decisions for so long that they are very comfortable with it as is and have a good ability to work with it as is.
Several members then pointed out that the issue was not if the RLA worked well for the lawyers, but that it doesn't work well at all for the pilots paying their salaries. The movement died in subcommittee.
Each pilot group will eventually do what is best for themselves. That is the nature of this business model. It isn't like AA, Delta or United, you do not own your flying and in most cases don't even own your planes, they're leased from ATSG-CAM.
You can't tell an AA pilot to take concessions or we'll give your flying to Delta. The business model ATSG and many ACMI rely on is being able to shift the flying to any of their subsidiary companies at will. As long as they can do that, then you can only fight for so long before all your flying has been transferred and the furlough-layoff-shutdown notice comes. Then add into the mix the customer shopping around for the lowest bid and it exasperates the downward pressure.
The real story is the RLA is broken. It was written at a time that never envisioned the outsourced business model in use at the regional industry or in the ACMI industry. None of the labor unions want to try to fix it either. There was a move in 2014 at the ALPA National BOD meeting to have the ALPA-PAC make updating the RLA to be commensurate with modern business practices. That resulting in the Legislative Affairs subcommittee going into prolonged executive session while a 3.5 hour parade of ALPA lawyers one by one gave little speeches why doing that was a bad idea. It all boiled down to two things.
1 - If the unions get to make changes to the RLA, managements will be right there pushing for their changes
2 - The union lawyers have had these laws, rules, regulations, arbitrations, and decisions for so long that they are very comfortable with it as is and have a good ability to work with it as is.
Several members then pointed out that the issue was not if the RLA worked well for the lawyers, but that it doesn't work well at all for the pilots paying their salaries. The movement died in subcommittee.
10-23-2021, 06:00 PM
#80
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,809
Originally Posted by Cujo665
As long as you keep fighting with each other, the company wins.
Each pilot group will eventually do what is best for themselves. That is the nature of this business model. It isn't like AA, Delta or United, you do not own your flying and in most cases don't even own your planes, they're leased from ATSG-CAM.
You can't tell an AA pilot to take concessions or we'll give your flying to Delta. The business model ATSG and many ACMI rely on is being able to shift the flying to any of their subsidiary companies at will. As long as they can do that, then you can only fight for so long before all your flying has been transferred and the furlough-layoff-shutdown notice comes. Then add into the mix the customer shopping around for the lowest bid and it exasperates the downward pressure.
The real story is the RLA is broken. It was written at a time that never envisioned the outsourced business model in use at the regional industry or in the ACMI industry. None of the labor unions want to try to fix it either. There was a move in 2014 at the ALPA National BOD meeting to have the ALPA-PAC make updating the RLA to be commensurate with modern business practices. That resulting in the Legislative Affairs subcommittee going into prolonged executive session while a 3.5 hour parade of ALPA lawyers one by one gave little speeches why doing that was a bad idea. It all boiled down to two things.
1 - If the unions get to make changes to the RLA, managements will be right there pushing for their changes
2 - The union lawyers have had these laws, rules, regulations, arbitrations, and decisions for so long that they are very comfortable with it as is and have a good ability to work with it as is.
Several members then pointed out that the issue was not if the RLA worked well for the lawyers, but that it doesn't work well at all for the pilots paying their salaries. The movement died in subcommittee.
Each pilot group will eventually do what is best for themselves. That is the nature of this business model. It isn't like AA, Delta or United, you do not own your flying and in most cases don't even own your planes, they're leased from ATSG-CAM.
You can't tell an AA pilot to take concessions or we'll give your flying to Delta. The business model ATSG and many ACMI rely on is being able to shift the flying to any of their subsidiary companies at will. As long as they can do that, then you can only fight for so long before all your flying has been transferred and the furlough-layoff-shutdown notice comes. Then add into the mix the customer shopping around for the lowest bid and it exasperates the downward pressure.
The real story is the RLA is broken. It was written at a time that never envisioned the outsourced business model in use at the regional industry or in the ACMI industry. None of the labor unions want to try to fix it either. There was a move in 2014 at the ALPA National BOD meeting to have the ALPA-PAC make updating the RLA to be commensurate with modern business practices. That resulting in the Legislative Affairs subcommittee going into prolonged executive session while a 3.5 hour parade of ALPA lawyers one by one gave little speeches why doing that was a bad idea. It all boiled down to two things.
1 - If the unions get to make changes to the RLA, managements will be right there pushing for their changes
2 - The union lawyers have had these laws, rules, regulations, arbitrations, and decisions for so long that they are very comfortable with it as is and have a good ability to work with it as is.
Several members then pointed out that the issue was not if the RLA worked well for the lawyers, but that it doesn't work well at all for the pilots paying their salaries. The movement died in subcommittee.
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