hercretired

OK for some reason I thought I saw somewhere that this year (2021) was the time. I thought ATI and cargo was benefiting from COVID and E-Commerce

Asci

Oh well yeah our current contract was for three years of pay increases and was signed in March of 2018 so we got our last raise this year. So we are now past the amendable date or when we enter into status quo or whatever it’s called. As to when we will reach an agreement on the next contract who knows.
It’s a game of chicken. Management wants bottom dollar. We want top (along with massive scheduling improvements).
The longer it drags on the more people will leave and the fewer jets we will be able to staff. This means less revenue. Management might be fine with that. At the end of the day pilots have no powers to make a contract happen or not. All we can do is vote with our feet just like at Atlas presently.

Reactivity

It doesn't matter who else signed contracts where. If they weren't ATSG companies, ATSG management doesn't care. I can't find it now, but I remember a statement from what I think was an earnings conference call after the ATI CBA was ratified in 2018 in which management said something to the effect of, "We know how much it costs to staff an airline, and we see no reason to pay any more than that."

Your bargaining won't be hampered by ABX. Your bargaining will be hampered by ATI in 2018. ABX tried for two years to get more. Every attempt was flatly refused. We were told that any agreement had to fit within the cost structure of ATI's agreement, "not one dollar more". ABX was losing people left and right to the big 5 at the time. Management didn't care. The president even said point blank that nobody should make ABX a career destination - come for a few years, but don't stay. In the end, our pay scale is exactly ATI's pay scale, right down to the total guaranteed hours per year, with 2% annual increases for the duration of the agreement. Why? Because it's what they would agree to - "not one dollar more".

ABX doesn't have a staffing problem. ABX doesn't have a performance problem. Let me give you a quote from the Q2 2019 earnings conference call when we were still more than a year from an agreement:

So it's not question of performance. It's because Amazon holds a grudge, and ATI is the beneficiary of that and the major miscalculation of the strike.

It's not a question of rolling over. It's a question of how long you're willing to beat your head against a brick wall to get something that's not being offered. If you're able to get more than 2% per year, that's great. ABX will be able to get that, too (in five years). But I'll be amazed if you're able to do it. I'm fairly certain there is a reason why ATI and ABX are pay matched at the same rates and 780 hours per year, and I don't see them giving up any more just because someone asked nicely. The "they'll need pilots" argument has been tried. It didn't work.

Asci

I mean would you hold a grudge if someone created a website called “can amazon deliver” and then blamed them for your low pay. Or perhaps rented a billboard truck to drive around the amazon corporate office that said the same? I mean you don’t see people driving around the pentagon saying the US military is driving down pilot wages (as they are one of the biggest ACMI customers).
Amazon is all about branding. Hence painted jets and new uniforms. They want good press not this:



Also does every pilot group that signs a contract hamper their next contract? I mean when American pilots signed a new CBA they certainly weren’t like oh I guess this is as good as it gets. Let’s just hope for 2% a year from here on out… if that were the case why would we even put a length of time on the contract. Why not just this is what we want for all of time. 20 year contract with fixed wage increases of 2%. I mean the last ATI contract had indefinite raises of 2% but that just lets the company kick the can down the road longer in the next round of negotiations.
And the they’ll need pilots argument doesn’t work when you’re not a growing airline, but if you keep adding planes and people are leaving to go to other airlines you won’t be able to staff them. If Amazon wants 200 airplanes at the new hub there will be a lot more airplanes and you will need a lot more pilots. And with the big three offering all those buyouts there are places to go…
ATSG has won the low pilot wage game for so long because they make all their money of leasing aircraft and the threat is always to move them away from their airlines. As amazon increases the percentage of those aircraft leases it won’t be feasible to just move them to other airlines if there aren’t pilots to fly them.
Also when ATI gets more than 2% a year don’t just try to match it in five years when your contract ends. Try to get more.


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Jurassic Jet

Keep dreaming big. You don’t know your overlords very well. The “not one dollar more” applies to you as well.

nitefr8dog

Mesa can wear the bent c@ck uniform and wear it cheaper. When you sing your tune about building an airline requires pilots and pay, look at Atlas they have like tripled in size while pilots jump ship like it's on fire and for horible pay.

Asci

LOL How did they triple in size? Oh by buying southern. Cool story bro. Those poor guys at Atlas are getting screwed over so hard and it shows:
Imagine if 269 pilots left ABX… there wouldn’t even be a pilot group.


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RyeMex

You’re more than delusional if you believe that Atlas’ growth has only been a function of purchasing Southern.

In the past 5 years, Atlas (not including Southern) grew from 1,416 pilots on the seniority list to 2,069.

I don’t have exact number for the Southern side of the house, but at the time of the acquisition I believe they had approximately 200 pilots on their seniority list. That list has grown to 524.

This has all occurred while Atlas / Southern has had one of the worst CBAs in the industry.

Just food for thought. I hope all the best for y’all on your next negotiating cycle, but be I’d be wary of the “they’ll have to pay us more to grow” argument.

Asci

Why did Atlas lose two amazon aircraft to ATI? Rumor was they couldn’t staff them. Certainly wasn’t bc ATI was cheaper. Rumor had it they were gonna lose three more but Covid put the kibosh on people leaving in masses. Sure some still trickled out to FedEx and UPS but there was no where else to go and all the guys from the regionals looking at furloughs or reduced pay were chomping at the bit to have a job(especially a 737 type rating… southern growth). Covid saved atlas management tbh. If the delta and mu variants don’t wreck air travel management will be screwed again. Their only hope is this new contract slows the bleeding.
The demand for air travel and e-commerce is unprecedented in our lifetimes. I mean you can fly for a regional and not need food stamps for crying out loud.


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Swakid8

You have to remember something, Amazon isn’t and never was Atlas bread and butter. Atlas bread and butter has always been 747, triple 7, and Dod flying. Atlas will sacrifice the 737 and 767 flying in order to support the heavy international flying. That’s always a given. While ATI relies heavily on Amazon, Atlas never has and won’t because that’s not the money is at. Atlas knows this and FedEx knows this as well (hence why they pretty cut ties carrying Amazon stuff).