Someone who gets it..
01-02-2008, 06:07 PM
#111
Nice lookin' tree, there!
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: MD-11, old man
Posts: 2,198
Not to flippant, but there is only one signature line on the FP/R. The hammer will always fall harder on the left seat.
fbh
fbh
Last edited by frozenboxhauler; 01-02-2008 at 08:22 PM. Reason: sentence added
01-02-2008, 06:23 PM
#112
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: Retired
Posts: 3,717
Originally Posted by PicklePausePull
Are you for real? So the guy in the right seat is not equally responsible for the overall safe operation of the flight? This is classic pre-CRM dinosaur mentailty, JJ. Why don't we take a little poll of how many FO's out here have kept their "precious" captain's Arse out of the FAA's office by focussing on the "safe operation of the aircraft." And if you think this won't occur more frequently with the fat, fly once a month over 60 crowd, than you are not being realistic. Moreover, I've flown plenty of times with Captains who have little or no international experience who rely heavily upon myself or a more experienced FO/RFO to get them a cross the big blue sea. How long has it been since you've flown, JJ?
The guy in the right seat is not equally responsible for overall safety, the captain is. At least that's what is said in the FOM.
This is not a pre-CRM mentality, as I'm a firm believer in that process, and always have been. It's just the way it is.
Polls don't matter, or haven't you noticed. I'm not debating the fact that lots of captains are "saved" by the heads up work of their first officers, and for that matter, their second officers, because I know it's true. What I am saying, again, is the captain is responsible for the operation of the jet.
As for "fat, fly once a month over 60 crowd", we've got lots of fat, fly once a month, under 60 crowd as well. How about that MD-11 first officer who was so heavy that he would have overstressed the crew rest area, and so was removed from any flight where the CRA was going to be used. That's probably why when you update your medical in VIPS, they ask for your weight.
Look, guys will either take responsibility for their actions, or they won't. Doesn't matter what seat they sit in or how old they are. The fact that the over 60 guys (you imply) are senior and have lots of vacation and sick time, does not mean that they will only fly once a month. I'm sure some will do that, but I'm equally sure that some won't. Similar to guys that are senior in their seats. Like the senior first officers who constantly bid to fly with check airmen, knowing full well, that they'll be bumped and get paid to stay home.
Again, I'm not trying to dispute the fact that we have some great first officers, with lots of international experience, who have helped their captains navigate the complexities of international air travel on many occasions.
What I was trying to say to Non-Member Bob, was that with the seniority based system, guys get compensated for their longevity. And like it or not, the company feels that captains are worth more than other crewmembers.
It's been 21 months and 14 days since I last was at the flight controls of a FedEx jet. It's been roughly 5 months since I last flew as a FedEx crew member (s/o on the Jurassic Jet.)
Last edited by Jetjok; 01-02-2008 at 06:53 PM.
01-02-2008, 07:36 PM
#113
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: Row well and live...
Posts: 494
Originally Posted by frozenboxhauler
Not to flippant, but there is only one signature line on the FP/R.
fbh
fbh
Both are required.
01-02-2008, 07:42 PM
#114
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: 777 FO
Posts: 931
We've all been Captains, Aircraft commander's, flight leads, instructors, etc prior to FDX. We all know the higher up on the food chain you go the more responsibility you have. The CA signs for the jet, plain and simple. Though both pilots will have to answer the mail for a screwup, the CA will more than likely have to answer more of it. It's my job as the F/O to be the best I can be at all times and keep the CA out of trouble. To be honest, I look for things to keep the CA out of trouble. More often than not, however, he keeps me out of trouble. I hate to see the AGE60 thing turned into a CA vs FO thing. It's really about our MEC vs the rest of us, the over 60 guys vs under 60 guys, and just about everyone vs junior guys...
01-02-2008, 07:55 PM
#116
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: DC10 Captain
Posts: 284
Originally Posted by frozenboxhauler
Not to flippant, but there is only one signature line on the FP/R.
fbh
fbh
01-02-2008, 08:45 PM
#117
New Hire
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: B737 Captain
Posts: 3
Originally Posted by subicpilot
Ok, well then, lets talk about one thing then, so we can only be talking about apples. Let’s address the crux of this whole issue. Seniority. The bottom line on this issue is, as I understand it, that guys on this forum are suggesting pay raises or bonuses or some form of override, targeted at senior F/O’s to make up for money that was anticipated to be earned through increased seniority and the accompanying seat progression that was anticipated as a result of that increased seniority.
All those other pay provisions, which you labeled as “oranges” when we were talking about “apples”, were examples of pay directly related to seniority. Passover is not something the company pays out of the goodness of their heart. It was negotiated for long ago and has become somewhat of an industry standard. Likewise, first and second officer pay has, for decades, been based on a percentage of the captains pay, aircraft specific.
As I am sure you are aware, this industry is cyclic. We have guys on the property who rode sideways for over 5 years before upgrading, and we have guys who made widebody captain in 5 years. We have one in HKG who’s gonna make it in about 3. I sat on the sidelines for over 3 years trying to get hired after I got out of the military before FedEx called me for an interview. I have friends on the other hand, who were offered airline employment before they left active duty. Timing is everything because seniority is everything. Everyone's situation is unique. Someone who rises faster than normal is lucky. So is someone who doesn't. Just a different kind of luck.
It’s my opinion that this situation is just another external influence on our industry that is helping some and hurting others. Like 9/11, we prospered at FedEx while our passenger carrying brethren suffered huge losses. Seat progression not only stagnated, it went backwards.
“The economic downturns of the past (or in the future) didn't mean that all current Captains would (potentially) get to maintain their current seats for another 5 yrs, while senior FOs stagnated.” – DLax85
Maybe I don’t understand what stagnation is. Could you clear it up for me?
None of this was their fault and they didn’t fracture and start blaming each other. Regulated age affects all airlines, although FedEx is unique because of our S/O situation.
If the order of magnitude of the current situation were worse, and I got bumped back to the Boeing or even the right seat, of course it would suck, but that’s the way the cookie crumbles in this industry and I have planned for such eventualities. I am being affected by this just as you are. My seniority is being held down just the same. You keep asking how my pay is being affected. Well, perhaps I can't hold a high paying line, or protect carryover, or do lots of other things that senior guys do to make more money. Actually, I'm pretty junior and I may wind up making RLG for a while longer because of this mess. Oh, well. That's how this business goes. This could amount to tens of thousands of dollars annually. Just because I have been here longer than you and have made it to the left seat of a widebody, doesn’t mean I am any less entitled to the fruits of my labor. Period.
So let the union examine a change in the pay structure. If the membership votes it in, so be it. But this sounds like a case of guys counting their chickens before they’re hatched.
All those other pay provisions, which you labeled as “oranges” when we were talking about “apples”, were examples of pay directly related to seniority. Passover is not something the company pays out of the goodness of their heart. It was negotiated for long ago and has become somewhat of an industry standard. Likewise, first and second officer pay has, for decades, been based on a percentage of the captains pay, aircraft specific.
As I am sure you are aware, this industry is cyclic. We have guys on the property who rode sideways for over 5 years before upgrading, and we have guys who made widebody captain in 5 years. We have one in HKG who’s gonna make it in about 3. I sat on the sidelines for over 3 years trying to get hired after I got out of the military before FedEx called me for an interview. I have friends on the other hand, who were offered airline employment before they left active duty. Timing is everything because seniority is everything. Everyone's situation is unique. Someone who rises faster than normal is lucky. So is someone who doesn't. Just a different kind of luck.
It’s my opinion that this situation is just another external influence on our industry that is helping some and hurting others. Like 9/11, we prospered at FedEx while our passenger carrying brethren suffered huge losses. Seat progression not only stagnated, it went backwards.
“The economic downturns of the past (or in the future) didn't mean that all current Captains would (potentially) get to maintain their current seats for another 5 yrs, while senior FOs stagnated.” – DLax85
Maybe I don’t understand what stagnation is. Could you clear it up for me?
None of this was their fault and they didn’t fracture and start blaming each other. Regulated age affects all airlines, although FedEx is unique because of our S/O situation.
If the order of magnitude of the current situation were worse, and I got bumped back to the Boeing or even the right seat, of course it would suck, but that’s the way the cookie crumbles in this industry and I have planned for such eventualities. I am being affected by this just as you are. My seniority is being held down just the same. You keep asking how my pay is being affected. Well, perhaps I can't hold a high paying line, or protect carryover, or do lots of other things that senior guys do to make more money. Actually, I'm pretty junior and I may wind up making RLG for a while longer because of this mess. Oh, well. That's how this business goes. This could amount to tens of thousands of dollars annually. Just because I have been here longer than you and have made it to the left seat of a widebody, doesn’t mean I am any less entitled to the fruits of my labor. Period.
So let the union examine a change in the pay structure. If the membership votes it in, so be it. But this sounds like a case of guys counting their chickens before they’re hatched.
Nine eleven cost me, as it did most everybody flying then. At a minimum it cost me two and a half years of FO pay in narrow body instead of the medium body and 3 years of captain's pay as that's how much longer I had to fly as an FO to get here. So I have to ask, is my over 5 year delay to the left seat any different then those who now have to wait potentially five more because of this rule change? I can't change 9/11, it happened, so the only logical thing to do is move on and make the best of it.
The age 60 rule change is a major event in the history of our profession! I think probably the Deregulation Act of 1978 falls into the same category. How many of us would be here today arguing about age if that hadn't happened? My point: all of us no matter our background, worked hard to get into and keep our positions, so let's not loose focus of who the enemey is. It's not junior against senoir, FO against Capt, it's all of us against management who will never cease trying to keep us under their thumb!
01-02-2008, 09:41 PM
#118
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Position: 777 Multi-tasker
Posts: 712
Originally Posted by Jetjok
It's been 21 months and 14 days since I last was at the flight controls of a FedEx jet. It's been roughly 5 months since I last flew as a FedEx crew member (s/o on the Jurassic Jet.)
21months 14 days.... and I"m sure you know the hours and min's, but it makes you sound bitter right? lol
01-02-2008, 10:40 PM
#119
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: 11 Capt
Posts: 509
Originally Posted by PicklePausePull
Are you for real? So the guy in the right seat is not equally responsible for the overall safe operation of the flight? This is classic pre-CRM dinosaur mentailty, JJ. Why don't we take a little poll of how many FO's out here have kept their "precious" captain's Arse out of the FAA's office by focussing on the "safe operation of the aircraft." And if you think this won't occur more frequently with the fat, fly once a month over 60 crowd, than you are not being realistic. Moreover, I've flown plenty of times with Captains who have little or no international experience who rely heavily upon myself or a more experienced FO/RFO to get them a cross the big blue sea. How long has it been since you've flown, JJ?
The Capt and FO work together to get the job done.
I bet your just an unhappy person in general..
Past...
01-03-2008, 01:26 AM
#120
Nice lookin' tree, there!
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: MD-11, old man
Posts: 2,198
Originally Posted by Toccata
And that new EFR is taking away my power to sign that thing in my best unreadable doctor-scribble-type style. Darn it.
fbh
