rjlavender

Thank you for the comments and I respect the things you have written in the past. Here are a couple of comments:

1. Seniority and longevity are two entirely unrelated concepts. Longevity is a true economic factor that goes to experience. Seniority is a political "system" that has nothing to do with experience, only the sequence in which one is hired. Thus it is possible to have employess with much experience and little seniority, and vice versa. Seniority and longevity overlapped by coincidence during "Regulation" when there was no turnover in the pilot ranks.

These two systems merged in the pilot mind during the Regulated period, and senior pilots began justifying great differentials in pay based on "seniority." The fact is that even the most "junior" pilot at FedEx is very experienced and, with relatively little training, can do the job of the most senior. Junior pilots are in fact claiming this with every suggestion that we get rid of a 60 year-old. Of course, the currently-junior pilot will, almost instantly, be subject to this same competitive "loop," and this is where the never-ending competitive pressure and infighting lies. Age has nothing to do with it; it could be 50 or 90, and the same competitive pressure would apply. Only skill level and financial incentive play a part, and our weakness is easily exploited by management.

Even a family practioner with 30 years of experience cannot do the job of the newest neurosurgeon, thus the family doc does not represent a competitive threat to the neuro doc. This is not the case among FedEx pilots. Financial incentives must be reallocated in order to reduce the competitive pressure among them.

2. No one is saying to have no union at FedEx. The option does not have to be all or none, as some like to suggest. The option is to have a competent union that recognizes the divisive factors and is capable of leading pilots to solutions that do not harm them.

One problem with ALPA is that ALPA officials will not permit the publication and free expression of ideas that would promote change. The LEC system is incapable of dealing with issues of this magnitude but it is very capable of protecting the incumbents. This has been going on for decades and the proof lies in the fact that we are still doing business in a way that is not capable of competing with Fred Smith, the courts, Congress, APAAD, or anything else. As I have pointed out, our system only stimulates competitive pressure within its own ranks.

If people enjoy "functioning in" this system, they are welcome to continue. But, after three decades of experience, I do not believe it is wise.

Bob

MaxKts

Here is the problem, you have all this experience yet still sit in the right seat. You could have upgraded long ago. These simple facts make people question your motivation for change in pay differentials. If you had upgraded and then championed for better pay for the F/O and S/O ranks the argument might carry some weight. (Also, if you would join the club instead of trying to change it from the outside, more people might listen.) Right now it seems like you just want to be paid more but don't want to accept the responsibility that goes with the higher pay scale!

Siting in the right seat and manipulating the controls as well as the guy to your left does not equate to having the same experience level. By doing the job you learn more about the job and gain experience. I personally learned more about flying while teaching others to fly then I ever did just flying the jet.

Yes we have many guys that have been Capt at other airlines and could do the job as well as I can. They eventually will be able to hold Capt here and then get to take home some extra pay. For these guys I could accept maybe paying them more when they are in the right seat. For someone who wants to be a professional F/O - the pay differential is apropriate.

jagplt

isn't the current system one of the reason's we have so many professional f/o's? they can bid lca lines, get bumped, then pick up as much as the can to max out the hrs. that coupled with the carryover issue, there's minimal incentive for them to take on responsibility. seems that was one of the issues Jack was trying to make... though poorly. so there isn't really the pay differential one would imagine for these professional fo's. again a big difference in the earning potential with the current seniority system, even in the f/o seat.

rjlavender

I think pilots here do a diservice to themselves by continuing to focus on personalities rather than on the economic and ethical principles that make or break us.

What I have written about has nothing to do with me, and I will demonstrate that to you with this: The differentials I am talking about are not between a captain and the F/O sitting next to him. They are the massive differentials that separate the captain who flies afternoon out-and-backs to Miami every day, sleeps in his own bed every night, has max vacation, and makes 250 grand...compared to the guy with equal skills who is sitting side saddle, flying four legs a night through Indy, has min vacation and makes 70 grand per year.

We have many, many issues in addition to those above that force us into our own "camps" and divide us as a group. What do you think Age 60 was? There was no attempt to address this as a matter of principle at either the local or national level. It devolved into a simple matter of every-man-for-himself in-fighting on BOTH sides of the issue. This stuff can be solved, but not by doing the same old thing. Would you not agree? And don't tell me to get involved with ALPA. Been there. Tradition runs too deep for the institution to change.

Bob

MaxKts

Now that won't be a problem in the next few years when the DC10 and 727 go away. What will be your argument then? A second year F/O in the 727 makes over $100,000. 20 years or 2 years experience that is a pretty good chunk of change for only your second year at your current job!

Jetjok

Our profession is primarily a seniority based system, regardless of whether we like it or not. Is it going to change to a knowledge or experience based system?...I doubt it. In the vast majority of professions outside of flying, regardless of what type of company/organization one works for, the basic premise of longevity yields higher pay and additional benefits for those who have chosen to stay for the long haul. It's not a question of equal skills, it's a question of seniority. And not just overall seniority within the company, but as is the case here, within a very specific workgroup. So (here at FedEx) if someone elects to stay in a seat and become more senior, at the cost of giving up the potential of earning more money, that's his choice. That doesn't give him the right to demand extra pay. The same can be said for the trips that are flown, across the spectrum of seniority. Junior guys don't by choice, fly the hard trips. They fly what's left of the lines that are built, and Yes, some of those trips are indeed, very hard. It's a cost of gaining seniority, and it's certainly one of the reasons that guys refuse to upgrade until they are senior enough to enjoy the fruits of their seniority.

As well, Bob, the guy sitting in the right seat, who might have fantastic hands, is not as valuable to the company as the guy sitting in the left seat, who might just barely be able to fly, because those two guys are doing completely different jobs. The guy in the left seat is RESPONSIBLE for the overall safe operation of the jet, while the guy in the right seat is not. As for the pay rates percentage differential of the seats, they could use an overhaul, but not at the expense of any one group, unless that "group" is the company coffers.

PicklePausePull

Are you for real? So the guy in the right seat is not equally responsible for the overall safe operation of the flight? This is classic pre-CRM dinosaur mentailty, JJ. Why don't we take a little poll of how many FO's out here have kept their "precious" captain's Arse out of the FAA's office by focussing on the "safe operation of the aircraft." And if you think this won't occur more frequently with the fat, fly once a month over 60 crowd, than you are not being realistic. Moreover, I've flown plenty of times with Captains who have little or no international experience who rely heavily upon myself or a more experienced FO/RFO to get them a cross the big blue sea. How long has it been since you've flown, JJ?

jagplt

I'm assuming you are asking about a front seat leg right? interesting question.. tied to that, how long before you figure to be flying another leg?

How's this going to work with the neardeads? bid, training slot, checkout.... how is the age 63 thing going to fit in and what about the two neardeads in the front at one time question? brings up a lot more unanswered questions.

MaydayMark

Everything is accomplished through teamwork until something goes wrong... then one pilot gets the blame.

An NTSB investigation is conducted by non-flying types who take six months to itemize the mistakes made by a crew that had six seconds to do something.

Flying Boxes

So when things go really wrong they on ask for the Capts license???
Be real F/O is also held responsible until you can only crash half an airplane.