1 in 7 and delayed
02-05-2008, 05:11 PM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 482
1 in 7 and delayed
FedEx FedEx FedEx
What if you have worked 6 days in a row and you are scheduled to land at 0030 but are late and land in day 7? What if you block out knowing you will land on your 7th day? Don't think it is a FAR issue since I had an airport standby where I was not used on the first day.
What if you have worked 6 days in a row and you are scheduled to land at 0030 but are late and land in day 7? What if you block out knowing you will land on your 7th day? Don't think it is a FAR issue since I had an airport standby where I was not used on the first day.
Last edited by viperdriver; 02-05-2008 at 07:43 PM.
02-05-2008, 05:35 PM
#2
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,001
If you're scheduled to land @ 0030, then you're already into your 7th day, no?
Either way, you can't depart knowing you're gonna' be in violation when you land. If you had a "present responsibility for duty", which airport standby most certainly is, than that counts as duty - neither you, nor your employer, can call that "rest".
I'd talk to someone specifically about your case rather than continue this on a public forum if this situation involves your flight today. If you're in a union, I'm sure they have a resource for you. If you're not, your company possibly has one - your boss, for instance, if you don't have any other resource. Most folks with the words "chief pilot" in their title know this kind of stuff pretty well if you don't have anyone else to turn to.
Either way, you can't depart knowing you're gonna' be in violation when you land. If you had a "present responsibility for duty", which airport standby most certainly is, than that counts as duty - neither you, nor your employer, can call that "rest".
I'd talk to someone specifically about your case rather than continue this on a public forum if this situation involves your flight today. If you're in a union, I'm sure they have a resource for you. If you're not, your company possibly has one - your boss, for instance, if you don't have any other resource. Most folks with the words "chief pilot" in their title know this kind of stuff pretty well if you don't have anyone else to turn to.
02-05-2008, 06:12 PM
#3
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: BOHICA
Posts: 68
Here is a copy and paste from Busboy's post on another thread. This is a FedEx contract.
There are 2 different requirements for a 1 in 7. Contractual and FAR's.
Contractual: You must be relieved from ALL duty for 24 consecutive hours at least once during any 7 consecutive days. That would include training, deadhead, reserve...
FAR's: You must be relieved from FLIGHT DECK DUTY for at least 24 hours during any 7 consecutive days. Only includes flight deck duty.
The 7 consectutive days must begin and end at 0130LBT, which is based on the definition of a day in our contract.
The 24hrs off, may begin and end at any time.
There are 2 different requirements for a 1 in 7. Contractual and FAR's.
Contractual: You must be relieved from ALL duty for 24 consecutive hours at least once during any 7 consecutive days. That would include training, deadhead, reserve...
FAR's: You must be relieved from FLIGHT DECK DUTY for at least 24 hours during any 7 consecutive days. Only includes flight deck duty.
The 7 consectutive days must begin and end at 0130LBT, which is based on the definition of a day in our contract.
The 24hrs off, may begin and end at any time.
02-05-2008, 06:50 PM
#4
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,001
Originally Posted by BusDawg
FAR's: You must be relieved from FLIGHT DECK DUTY for at least 24 hours during any 7 consecutive days. Only includes flight deck duty.
From ALPA:
III. SEVEN-DAY REST REQUIREMENT
The rule has a requirement that flight crewmembers engaged in scheduled air transportation be given 24 consecutive hours free of duty every seven days. This requirement extends to regional operators. These provisions [FAR 121.471(d) and 135.265(d)] read:
FAR 121.471(d) provides:
Each certificate holder conducting domestic operations shall relieve each
flight crewmember engaged in scheduled air transportation from all further
duty for at least 24 consecutive hours during any 7 consecutive days.
FAR 135.265(d) provides:
Each certificate holder shall relieve each flight crewmember engaged in
scheduled air transportation from all further duty for at least 24 consecutive
hours during any 7 consecutive days.
In interpreting this provision, the “seven consecutive days” are calendar days while the “24 consecutive hours” are only 24 hours, which may extend over two calendar days.
The FAA has consistently interpreted this provision to be a flight-time limitation, not a duty-time limitation. Its purpose is to insure that a flight crewmember is adequately rested prior to flying as a crewmember in scheduled air transportation. Therefore, this provision is violated only if the crewmember is used in scheduled air transportation without having had relief from duty for 24 consecutive hours during any seven consecutive days.
The following are some of the frequently asked questions concerning this provision.
Q-38. If I am scheduled to fly for six days, can I be scheduled for training on the seventh day?
A-38. Yes. An air carrier is permitted to assign a crewmember to training
or other non-flight (duty aloft) duties without first giving 24 hours
free of duty. However, before the air carrier can again use the
crewmember in scheduled air transportation, you must be given 24
hours free from all duty.
Q-39. If I am scheduled to fly for six days, can I deadhead as a crewmember on the seventh day?
A-39. Yes. However, after the deadheading, 24 hours of rest would be
required before you could be returned to flight duties.
Q-40. Can I deadhead on Day One and be scheduled for flight duties for the next six days?
A-40. No. The flight crewmember could not be assigned flight duties on
the seventh day because the seven-day period does not contain 24
hours free of duty. Q-41. Can I be assigned four days of training followed by three days of flight duties?
Q-41. Can I be assigned four days of training followed by three days of flight
duties?
A-41. No. As in the above example, the seven-day period did not contain
24 hours free of duty.
Q-42. Can I be assigned to reserve status during a 24-consecutive-hour rest period?
A-42. Yes. Duty as provided by FAR 121.471(d) does not include time
spent by a flight crewmember in reserve status and a crewmember
may be assigned to such reserve duty on the seventh day providing
you are not actually placed on duty aloft. Before you could be given
a flight assignment, you would have to be given 24 hours free of all
duty.
The rule has a requirement that flight crewmembers engaged in scheduled air transportation be given 24 consecutive hours free of duty every seven days. This requirement extends to regional operators. These provisions [FAR 121.471(d) and 135.265(d)] read:
FAR 121.471(d) provides:
Each certificate holder conducting domestic operations shall relieve each
flight crewmember engaged in scheduled air transportation from all further
duty for at least 24 consecutive hours during any 7 consecutive days.
FAR 135.265(d) provides:
Each certificate holder shall relieve each flight crewmember engaged in
scheduled air transportation from all further duty for at least 24 consecutive
hours during any 7 consecutive days.
In interpreting this provision, the “seven consecutive days” are calendar days while the “24 consecutive hours” are only 24 hours, which may extend over two calendar days.
The FAA has consistently interpreted this provision to be a flight-time limitation, not a duty-time limitation. Its purpose is to insure that a flight crewmember is adequately rested prior to flying as a crewmember in scheduled air transportation. Therefore, this provision is violated only if the crewmember is used in scheduled air transportation without having had relief from duty for 24 consecutive hours during any seven consecutive days.
The following are some of the frequently asked questions concerning this provision.
Q-38. If I am scheduled to fly for six days, can I be scheduled for training on the seventh day?
A-38. Yes. An air carrier is permitted to assign a crewmember to training
or other non-flight (duty aloft) duties without first giving 24 hours
free of duty. However, before the air carrier can again use the
crewmember in scheduled air transportation, you must be given 24
hours free from all duty.
Q-39. If I am scheduled to fly for six days, can I deadhead as a crewmember on the seventh day?
A-39. Yes. However, after the deadheading, 24 hours of rest would be
required before you could be returned to flight duties.
Q-40. Can I deadhead on Day One and be scheduled for flight duties for the next six days?
A-40. No. The flight crewmember could not be assigned flight duties on
the seventh day because the seven-day period does not contain 24
hours free of duty. Q-41. Can I be assigned four days of training followed by three days of flight duties?
Q-41. Can I be assigned four days of training followed by three days of flight
duties?
A-41. No. As in the above example, the seven-day period did not contain
24 hours free of duty.
Q-42. Can I be assigned to reserve status during a 24-consecutive-hour rest period?
A-42. Yes. Duty as provided by FAR 121.471(d) does not include time
spent by a flight crewmember in reserve status and a crewmember
may be assigned to such reserve duty on the seventh day providing
you are not actually placed on duty aloft. Before you could be given
a flight assignment, you would have to be given 24 hours free of all
duty.
I added the bold @ the end. It seems clear to me, but maybe I've always read it wrong.
The contractual issue is different, of course.
Last edited by Sniper; 02-05-2008 at 07:01 PM. Reason: adding bold stuff and text
02-05-2008, 09:42 PM
#5
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 83
Originally Posted by BusDawg
Here is a copy and paste from Busboy's post on another thread. This is a FedEx contract.
There are 2 different requirements for a 1 in 7. Contractual and FAR's.
Contractual: You must be relieved from ALL duty for 24 consecutive hours at least once during any 7 consecutive days. That would include training, deadhead, reserve...
FAR's: You must be relieved from FLIGHT DECK DUTY for at least 24 hours during any 7 consecutive days. Only includes flight deck duty.
The 7 consectutive days must begin and end at 0130LBT, which is based on the definition of a day in our contract.
The 24hrs off, may begin and end at any time.
There are 2 different requirements for a 1 in 7. Contractual and FAR's.
Contractual: You must be relieved from ALL duty for 24 consecutive hours at least once during any 7 consecutive days. That would include training, deadhead, reserve...
FAR's: You must be relieved from FLIGHT DECK DUTY for at least 24 hours during any 7 consecutive days. Only includes flight deck duty.
The 7 consectutive days must begin and end at 0130LBT, which is based on the definition of a day in our contract.
The 24hrs off, may begin and end at any time.
I looked it up. I read that all duty must be relieved.
§ 121.471 Flight time limitations and rest requirements: All flight crewmembers.
(d) Each certificate holder conducting domestic operations shall relieve each flight crewmember engaged in scheduled air transportation from all further duty for at least 24 consecutive hours during any 7 consecutive days.
§ 121.503 Flight time limitations: Pilots: airplanes.
(c) Each certificate holder conducting supplemental operations shall relieve each pilot from all duty for at least 24 consecutive hours at least once during any seven consecutive days.
I'd send in a NASA form and keep it quiet for 30 days. I'm sure it happens a lot; it's just the guys/gals that get the unlucky audit from the feds that hear anything.
02-05-2008, 10:36 PM
#6
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: leaning to the left
Posts: 4,184
Try to look up "duty" or "duty time" in the FARs. I don't believe you'll find it.
My info was from a FDX/ALPA "Positive Rate" article that was written prior to our last contract, trying to explain the "1 in 7" rule. And, how it fit in with the "24 off in 168 consecutive hours" language, that was in the old contract. The new language doesn't mention 168hrs, just 7 consecutive days.
Is the FAR definition of "duty" made by our POI? I don't know.
Bottom line is...By FAR's, you can't fly 7 days in a row.(I think arpt stby is considered flt deck duty)
By our FDX contract...You can't do anything, that we consider duty, 7 days in a row. That pretty much covers it. If you go by the contract, you're legal!!
Of course, go to the horse's uhhhh.., mouth, DT, our buddy in Contract Enforcement. He'll give you the answer that really counts.
My info was from a FDX/ALPA "Positive Rate" article that was written prior to our last contract, trying to explain the "1 in 7" rule. And, how it fit in with the "24 off in 168 consecutive hours" language, that was in the old contract. The new language doesn't mention 168hrs, just 7 consecutive days.
Is the FAR definition of "duty" made by our POI? I don't know.
Bottom line is...By FAR's, you can't fly 7 days in a row.(I think arpt stby is considered flt deck duty)
By our FDX contract...You can't do anything, that we consider duty, 7 days in a row. That pretty much covers it. If you go by the contract, you're legal!!
Of course, go to the horse's uhhhh.., mouth, DT, our buddy in Contract Enforcement. He'll give you the answer that really counts.
Last edited by Busboy; 02-05-2008 at 10:42 PM.
02-06-2008, 11:38 AM
#7
Tri-tanic operator
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Doggie
Posts: 2,382
Prior to the "Whitlow" interpretation of rest and duty ... I was placed on 24 hour reserve for 30 days in a row, Midway Airlines in RDU.
This intrepretation changed the way some lower tier airlines utilized their reserves. No longer could reserve be a 24 hour period, and a 24 hour break had to be scheduled somewhere.
And as far as the definition of "duty" ... in simple terms, if you are not at rest, with no responsiblilty whatsoever to the company, then it is considered duty for regulatory requirements.
As always ... YMMV
Later, Brown CC
This intrepretation changed the way some lower tier airlines utilized their reserves. No longer could reserve be a 24 hour period, and a 24 hour break had to be scheduled somewhere.
And as far as the definition of "duty" ... in simple terms, if you are not at rest, with no responsiblilty whatsoever to the company, then it is considered duty for regulatory requirements.
As always ... YMMV
Later, Brown CC
Last edited by CactusCrew; 02-06-2008 at 11:55 AM.
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