New Bid Out
09-09-2008 | 10:09 AM
#51
Nice lookin' tree, there!
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,242
Likes: 14
From: Tool-Box, old man
Tell him that I'm praying for him
fbh
09-09-2008 | 10:21 AM
#52
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,047
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From: 767 FO
You never get what you ask for, you only get what you are able to negotiate for. In any negotiation, there is a point in time where the negotiations bog down, and the union has to decide whether to submit it to the membership or not.
SFS was closing and HKG was opening, with or without a LOA. It is my opinion that the NC submitted what they felt was the best agreement they could get at that time based on their interactions with the company.
The LOA was submitted for ratification and was vilified, justifiably, on APC. Mgt doesn't agree with many of the things posted here, but, they did react. And the LOA passed with some of the modifications proposed here, and documented in a LOA to the LOA prior to the final vote.
There is absolutely no way anyone can know what would have happened if the NC had thrown the company's offer back and refused to allow us to vote on it. Ultimately, the NC and MEC are only a fraction of those who voted yes. How many of the HKG pilots would have gone without a LOA?
I am confident that the NC did not negotiate for less $$. Damn sure that BC didn't turn down the company's offer of whatever rental assistance it takes to get a 3BR 2k apt in HKG or Paris. Damn sure that the NC didn't turn down FC tickets and insist on coach.
SFS was closing and HKG was opening, with or without a LOA. It is my opinion that the NC submitted what they felt was the best agreement they could get at that time based on their interactions with the company.
The LOA was submitted for ratification and was vilified, justifiably, on APC. Mgt doesn't agree with many of the things posted here, but, they did react. And the LOA passed with some of the modifications proposed here, and documented in a LOA to the LOA prior to the final vote.
There is absolutely no way anyone can know what would have happened if the NC had thrown the company's offer back and refused to allow us to vote on it. Ultimately, the NC and MEC are only a fraction of those who voted yes. How many of the HKG pilots would have gone without a LOA?
I am confident that the NC did not negotiate for less $$. Damn sure that BC didn't turn down the company's offer of whatever rental assistance it takes to get a 3BR 2k apt in HKG or Paris. Damn sure that the NC didn't turn down FC tickets and insist on coach.
On any union vote a yes vote is going to have anywhere from 10-40% ground floor advantage. The range difference is because the union leadership influences this base with their propaganda. Again how would the 1st vote have turned out without the hardsell (wanta fight). Put a pay cut on the ballot tomorrow with the union leadership claiming we must vote yes to preserve the flying and it will pass. I am confident that FC tickets were in the contract until the NC (with the help of the leadership and 68%) gave them up with the LOA. But to answer your question in red, maybe none. Then we would all have had the chance to go 1st class to hong kong with SIBA or the company would have had to make us a better offer.
The company offer was not the problem, union leadership rolling over and steam rolling the oposition was the problem.
PS. With out the LOA we may not have been short of FOs as the tax equalization rip off would not be a player.
Last edited by FDXLAG; 09-09-2008 at 10:33 AM.
09-09-2008 | 11:02 AM
#53
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,931
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I know I will be flamed for saying this, but here goes.
The membership ratified it, twice. The FO slots are more than 50% filled. It may be considered a near success. The anger of the 20 people on APC is not reflected across the thousands of FDX pilots. If we really hated it, all the FO slots would be empty.
I submit the intent was never to fully man the FO positions without, eventually, sweetening the pot. Perhaps the company even thought it was possible to get it filled without improving the LOA. When we signed the LOA we gave them the opportunity to treat us like a car salesman would. Those going over as FO apparently bought it.
I believe the company knew we would have multiple bids to fill it. We are right on glideslope.
Last edited by Gunter; 09-09-2008 at 11:10 AM.
09-09-2008 | 11:12 AM
#54
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,184
Likes: 0
From: leaning to the left
Out of 4500+/- pilots, the company can't find 17 guys, to fill the HKG slots, on 3 different bids?...And, you can whittle that message down to 20 angry guys on APC? Brilliant!!
My numbers(pilots and bids) may be skewed, due to lack of interest.
My numbers(pilots and bids) may be skewed, due to lack of interest.
09-09-2008 | 12:30 PM
#56
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,068
Likes: 0
Spot on as usual Gunter. They have nothing to lose playing it this way. Each incremental bid allows them to accomplish a few things. First, it allows them to say that are actively trying to fill the permanent vacancies in case they use STV and someone grieves it. Second, every pilot they add is one less STV they have to do which increases the odds that they will be able to fill STV's voluntarily without having to do invols which probably would prefer not to do, and you can be sure that the MEC doesn't want to see. Both sides silence on this seems to speak volumes.
09-09-2008 | 12:36 PM
#57
...Whatever It Is!
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,680
Likes: 0
Can anyone explain why anyone would/should bid it on this go around? If you didn't bid it before, there's no reason to bid it now. The mention of an excess bid in 2009 shouldn't matter. If you think you're going to get excessed, why not wait until the excess bid. One, you'll be home for Christmas. Two, you just might not get excessed. Only a furlough threat should make someone possibly change their mind right now. And obviously that isn't happening.
Nothing has changed since the last closing.
Nothing has changed since the last closing.
I've been saying this with each HKG bid! We know there will be some excess bid in the future, why not wait until then and get a better deal with more options!
09-09-2008 | 01:10 PM
#58
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,304
Likes: 0
From: MD-11 Captain
If the above statement is true ... why isn't our union giving us this specific advice? I know, I know, they're going to tell me to red the contract for myself but if it were that easy why do we have a full time legal department?
09-09-2008 | 03:03 PM
#59
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,931
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But if you wait to bid it until an excess...You have to consider that you may not be able to hold it when push comes to shove. It may not go as junior as it will this time.
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