727driver

If you sign up for the FE upgrade program, there has to be someone to replace your FE seat in order for you to move to the Falcon. Unfortunately, there's nobody available ( or making it through training) so they hire dozens of street FOs for the Falcon before you ever get a chance, if you ever get a chance.

With regard to rest rules, if you say no, they will either fire you, or put you in "time out" where you don't get assigned flying for a long time.

727driver

RyeMex is right on....

RyeMex

Adler, I will readily agree that the training and standards that the 727 pilots were held to was vastly superior to what was provided / expected out of us in the "little airplane".

However, this is not a pertinent conversation. I never brought up training, proficiency, the capability of a crewmember, or the "size of their cockpit". The points that I made, which would be universal regardless of whether one were to operate a 172 or a 777, were as follows:

While I was at IFL,

1. The company expected and required crewmembers to operate aircraft without the rest that is required by Federal law.

2. The company, at least on one occasion of which I have first hand experience, coerced a crewmember into flying a trip AFTER the crewmember had already stated, on a recorded line, that they were unfit for duty.

3. The company actively encouraged / threatened crewmembers to operate aircraft that were made un-airworthy by inoperative equipment or other mechanical defects until the assignment had been completed and the airplane could be repositioned to PTK. One only has to look through any aircraft log and realize that 95% of the discrepancies noted were documented on the leg that ended in PTK, the company's repair station.
How fortunate.

727C47

For a lot of us in the mid to late 1990's IFL was a last stand for the big props , the last gasp for a certain type of aviation, round motors, and tail wheels that was rapidly disappearing in the lower 48, it was a company that was close knit, that did things the right way, when we eked out a profit in 1993 after a few years of struggle they threw a party for all of us in January '94, and had the FBO van pick us up at home and drop us off afterward so no one had to drive, it was 9 DC3's, 2 CV340's, and a DC4 , plus 2 EMB -110's , against an all turbine world, and not only did we hold our own , we were thriving. I was a DC3 and Convair Captain, a check airman on the 3, and even DO 135 for a while during my tenure there. I left in early 2000 to fly pax 727's , my memories of my time there are warm ones, yet companies change, cultures change, it is what it is. I wish all of my IFL alums the best, and I wish the best to those who are there today, it's a tough, tough, job , that non sched , on call thing, God bless all those who are in that mix, may they get the rest, and support that they need , and move on when the time is right to the cockpit of their dreams. Cheers out .

Gapilot

Thanks for everyone talking about the FE position. So one of the person said that to use the FE to the total ATP it is 1/3 which mean that for every one hour it it 3 hours of being an FE, hope that what I understand from the rule. which If I understand it correctly for the 1/3, currently I have about 550 total and to get the 1500 required, I need another 950 hours which to get that I have to time that by 3. That would be 2850 hours of FE time which would get me the 1500 for the ATP?

I hope I didn't confuse anyone one but that what it seem to be the number, which you can correct me if I am wrong.

Lastly, I wonder for a person that a family and has a house in another area it would most likely not be a good job for me, which the company would more prefer a person being close to the base, then say be living in Oregon, or is it possible to commute to work?

Thanks again

adler

Ok, so I'm not trying to say you're wrong, but at least on the 727...

Simply did not happen on the Boeing. Duty day limits for Part 121S three-man crew on international flights do not exist, that is an issue with the FAA never assigning any - not with IFL. Rest rules, they say that you are not obligated to answer your phone, you choose to. That is correct, while strange and pretty original, not illegal.

We worked long days, but only maybe twice that I can recall did a crew decide that they were too tired, they went to a hotel mid trip. No harm came to them.

Again, the 727 may have been different than the Falcon, but I thought our maintenance was top notch, especially considering what a complicated old bird she was. When something broke on the road, they would Falcon a mechanic out to fix it. When we were busy at a particular airport like FWA or DFW, they had mechanics in the hotel there ready to go. During peak, they even carry a mechanic on board. Not to mention, always having a FE...

Diverb

How long is the FE training program? I live about 30-40mins east of PTK. I'm ready to start my second career and I'd be happy to be an FE. I'm a mechanical kinda of guy so learning the systems would be an enjoyable challenge

englishtom1596

Its been fun sitting back and reading through all of these posts flaming IFL but I think its time to add my 2 cents for the people who are looking for current information (Diverb and GApilot)

I'm currently an FO on the 727 and have been here for just over 2 years. I can't comment on the Falcon or Convair side so please keep this in mind.

The engineer flow through is currently in full swing. This program was initially implemented to get 250 hour guys from the FE seat, to the Falcon seat, to ATP mins and back to the 727 FO seat. Our engineers have the option of 18 on, 12 off or full time schedule. Most of the guys take the schedules but the ones who want to make money and advance fast will go with the full time and suck it up for 6-8 months. Full time guys make around $40K base pay with $0.12 a mile flown bonus for a total of around $52K. Part time guys usually come in about $10K less but great money compared to flight instructing, pipeline or other time building jobs. someone previously said you won't flow to the falcon until your seat is filled behind you, which is correct. What they didn't say is we run 3-4 classes a year which we average 3 guys sticking it out. Everyone who has come through this flow has been back filled and moved to the falcon around 6 months, even if its left us short handed on the Boeing. The problem we're facing now is guys are choosing to go to the regionals instead of coming back to the Boeing but thats a problem management is going to have to try and solve moving forward.

As for the Job I will say we average 450-500 hours a year on the Boeing. January through may is usually an average of 150 hours.. so we basically have the first half of the year off (although we are on call). The job is hard work but we have great crews and we all work together. Captains, FO's and engineers will load freight, strap freight, grab tail stands, deal with fueling etc etc. We make our money when the planes moving so its all hands on deck to get the bird back in the air. We do have long days on occasion but most average 12-14 hours. I have had very long international trips but have never had a problem telling company we need an hour or two in the FBO to grab a nap and some food before continuing on. In some cases company has even sent us to the hotel to get our 8 hours mid trip if they know freight is going to be too long of a wait. Everyone wants to make money, but the dispatchers and management know that if we say we need something in the interest of safety there are no questions asked.

Training for the Boeing is very involved. For the most part its a 6 day a week schedule from 9-6 for class room. There is a lot of knowledge thrown at you in a short amount of time just like any airline. The difference is we don't have fancy interactive computer programs and you really have to know everything about the aircraft. Modern aircraft the computer systems control whether something will happen, in the 727 you are the logic in the system. For example, if you're overheating a pack because you're demanding too much cold air then YOU need to warm the mix valve to reduce that load. If you can learn the 727 systems then you'll breeze through any other systems class for the rest of your career. With that said the instructors work extremely hard to get everyone through training and ABSOLUTELY will not recommend someone for a check ride until 100% certain they will pass. In my initial they spent 3x the allotted sim time with one candidate one on one, doing everything to get him through until the guy just gave up and threw in the towel. If you give your all and make progress IFL will not turn their back on you.

Sorry for the novel but I wanted to give a detailed description of someone who started as an engineer 2 years ago and is currently working there. Yes IFL isn't for everyone and it certainly takes a certain breed of pilots to do what we do. If you can stick it out its an extremely rewarding job with a great group of pilots and management.

Any questions for me from the low time guys you can feel free to PM me.

hockey1082

Lots of great info Englishtom1596! I especially liked the part about the crew being the logic in the problem solving! So true! Thanks for sharing your point of view!

aviatorhi

For anyone considering using the FE hours towards an ATP there is a limit of 500 hours credit (1500-500) for the FE hours... so you won't get to 1500 from 250 with 3750 FE hours.