pwdrhound

I know this has probably been covered before or its somewhere in the contract but here is the question: As a fairly senior widebody FO (about 30%), if I were to bid HKG captain to relieve excess and NOT get it, does that in any way shape or form entitle me to Passover since there are currently much more junior captains than me in HKG? My quess is no. My understanding is that I would have to be getting excessed from my seat to qualify for passover.... Yes, no, maybe?

Cujo

give it a shot...it can't hurt. The muddyer (sure, it's a word) the water, the better. It will only take 2 years to clean up the training letter.

2cylinderdriver

If you could of held a bid to relieve, and you could not hold a position that paid the same as HKG CA. You should be eligible, based on the virtual training letter and where you would fall in the mix.

The best way to go is call ALPA and run the question through them, but I suggest reading the recent settlement agreement before you call, it will help with any explanation you get.

Gunter

Some of the guys who created the need for the virtual training letter were met with unhappy responses to their questions and were told not to game the system. I would not expect help.

You can't win if you don't play.

FDXLAG

I am sure the company lawyers give the same advice to the company. Don't game the system, just because the contract says to do this does not mean we have to do this.

kwri10s

If I understand correctly. If you are bidding to relieve excess you will be "awarded" that position as long as all the excess slots are not filled by someone Sr to you. In other words, for you not to be awarded the CA slot there should be no one excessed at all or anyone jr to you relieving excess. Since there are no HK CA slots being excessed and only 1 MEM FO being excessed as long as you are the most SR guy relieving excess you will get it. Now for every CA that slides back to the FO slot that's sr to you that is one more slot to move from the MEM FO list.

Since realistically everyone Sr to you is not going to bid to relieve every CA sliding backwards, you would be awarded the HK CA slot, but you might not be given a training slot also dependent on how many sr to you also bid over. In that case you would be "awarded" the slot but receive POP since you are not being allowed to go. After that you get into the murky waters of POP.

I think that was the gist of the long thread about POP in HK. In essence, if 500 MEM 11 FOs bid CA, only the most sr might be required to go. Or it could be ANC CAs bidding to HK, or LAX CAs. Either way the most sr guys bidding to go to HK in the left seat would be the ones to go. OR if no one bids to relieve then the HK vacancy bid will proceed as planned.

So if every ANC and MEM 11 CA being excessed (13) and the 91 Bus CA all bid to the FO in MEM and assume they are sr to all the current MEM FOs then 104 MEM FOs will need to be excessed. If the top 104 current FOs all bid HK CA then they are all bidding to relieve, but 104 can't go to HK as CAs. The bid to relieve would move down to FO number 105 and so on. If everyone bid HK CA to relieve excess everyone would be awarded that but no one could move. At some point in the FO seniority list you would not be senior to the jr CA in HK. At that point those guys could not bid to relieve to CA in HK. Everyone not allowed to go to HK would get POP. So let's say for my example that 350 MEM 11 FO all now get POP for CA. The excess bid still needs to move 104 guys off the MEM 11 FO so the bottom 104 all get excessed to ANC. Let's say the top 104 at ANC are all sr to the jr HK CA. Then they can bid to relieve to HK CA also, but they will not be allowed to go, so POP for them too. That was where the 1500 guys getting POP reference came from on the other thread.

Clear as mud?

Popeye

Clear as mud, is right.

I don't understand why you think 1500 guys might get POP over this excess bid. The company is looking for 20 HKG CA. The most senior 20 guys that can bid for the vacancy or bid to relieve an excess from where they are now, will get the bid. Anyone else will stay where they are or go to some other seat that their seniority can sustain.

Since the excess bid will close before the vacancy bid, those senior pilots hoping to fill the vacancy, might find that the vacancy no longer exists when the vacancy bid closes because a junior pilot got the bid first. But since these are two separate bids, would the POP rules apply? My understanding, very likely in error, is that you get POP because a junior pilot is doing something you wanted to do as a result of the same bid.

Staying true to my prediction that there is no furlough in our immediate future, I suspect the company might like to plus up the HKG domicile in both seats. They might very well tell 20 pilots that they can go to HKG CA when they bid to relieve an excess; then tell 20 more that they too can go to fill the vacancy. If things do turn around, now they are not spending $20K/month/pilot operating HKG SIBA in the CA seat. The training letter might be 18 months long as well. You aren't eligible for POP until that junior guys gets activated. It may be a long wait, and you'll need to keep that you standing bid in the meantime. In times such as these, a lot can change in 18 months.

Hardly worth 2 cents, I know.

FDXLAG

Are you saying that if an ANC F/O is excessed and

is senior to any HKG Capt and

bids HKG Capt and

is excessed to a lower paying seat.

He is not entitled to POP.

If so, I think you are wrong. Yes the VTL will be long (thanks ALPA) but anybody senior to pilot 3922 and being excessed to a lower paying seat will be eligible for POP. I don't think it will be 1500 but it will be more than 100.

Popeye

LAG, pour yourself a cup of decaf.

If he wasn't among the top 20 senior pilots to bid HKG CA on the vacancy, no, he doesn't get POP. Since the excess will close first, he had better be among the top 20 senior pilots that bid to relieve the excess and bid to go to HKG, or he doesn't get POP.

If there was a -1, in the HKG CA position, there would be a bump and flush. Different story. That is why I threw out an idea that perhaps the company would like to see 40 pilots in the HKG CA pipeline for 18 months. Since an FDA pilot can not be displaced, unless there is a spot for your senior Airbus CA, no, I don't think he gets POP.

But then again, I could be wrong. Enjoy your coffee.

Busboy

Why wouldn't someone senior to a present HKG Capt get passover if they were excessed from their current seat, bid HKG Capt and were not awarded it? Isn't someone being excessed suppose to be able to move to any seat their seniority allows? If 400 guys bid it, and the company only wants 20...It's their call; POP, or award the seat, isn't it?