I thought the 3 hour call is already in the contract..........they just don't use it.

 

You mean like R24...which has been bastardized into a 1.5 hr hotel standby, completely ignoring the intent and purpose of the agreement?

Trust us.

Of course, that was just warmups compared to the $39 million we've taken in pay cuts so far.

 

And yet the people responsible for negotiating contracts on pilots behalves across the industry tend to think so. We as pilots love to maintain and display our independence of thought, even when we're given guidance to the contrary by those who are more knowledgeable on a particular subject.

Totally agree with you there.

True, but they can't quantify/substantiate it. It's one thing for them to make suppositions to our negotiators or a mediator about our groups' wishes and whether the NC truly represents them, it's another for them to be able to print chaff from a thread that's bound to go double digits in posts if we let it to support those suppositions.

In general, serious group brainstorming in this industry does not belong on any forum, e-mail or other electronic medium. Convenient? Yes, but fraught with issues. Not all will agree, but imho it's best to keep your previously spoken paranoia on such things.

True and you described the best way to do it, contacting your rep. Nothing written here will ever be considered official union guidance, nor should it be. Therefore, it can't really help but can possibly hurt. If any of us wants it to be official, we must contact our reps and/or show up at a meeting, volunteer, etc. Otherwise we don't really have much business complaining about the results, no matter how much our individual dues are.

 

If I answer this thread in my dark bedroom wearing nothing but boxers, does that count?


Maybe Vagabond would be interested in joining us.

 

Is this more nuance? Did a negotiator fart onetime when APC was mentioned and now we are to take it as gospel that ALPA doesn’t want us talking about what we would like to see in the next contract? Or are you just expressing your opinion?

Your way worked great for negotiating the HKG LOA.

 

Aren't we all?

Yes which is always tough when you have 4600+ people, especially when they're all type-A people who fiercely pride themselves on the independence of their thoughts.

I didn't say ALPA doesn't want us talking about what we would like to see in the next contract, that's silly. I'm just saying that this particular venue isn't doing us any good in that regard at best, and depending on the evolution of things it could actually hurt us. Chess not checkers. This is fairly common union knowledge/strategy across the industry, certainly not the flatulence of a negotiator over APC.

Uhh Ouch? Great drive-by but the scenarios are structurally different. We the membership had nothing to do with the negotiation of the HKG LOA, only the ratification process. Neither our MEC/MC, nor our NC asked for our input before sending that thing out for ratification. The failure there was with the officials we put in charge, apathy on the part of some, and a general lack of understanding of how the ratification process works and what to expect at roadshows, in post-endorsement mailings, etc.

Those lessons should absolutely be remembered by all, but in this situation we have different leadership and they are openly requesting our input for contract desires and outlining where they want that input sent. Besides even the most the jaded of the POH, should realize by now that none of the squawking done here over age-60 or the FDA led to any of that stuff being taken up as official council or NC direction and isn't that the desired point of this thread? There are processes to get our voices officially heard by our leadership on topics like this. Think about it, overall we've seen more reactions to comments on these boards from management than we have from our union. It's not even close and it should be instructive.

As long as they're widely read/distributed venues like APC can be very effective ways of disseminating information on things like the pros/cons of ratifying a particular deal, or increasing membership awareness of some of the more esoteric subjects out there to get people to get their reps involved. The recent thread about the next phase of Open Skies is a good example. As long as you've got your ducks in a row politically, boards like this can be a great way to drum up support for candidates for office and hammer the opposition because there are rules pertaining to what can and cannot be said on ALPA forum/email that can be very easily skirted here. There are tons of great things and uses for APC, which I obviously believe by my number of posts, I just don't think this is one of them.

 

I would do multiple quotes but this thread is already too long.

Yes we are all just expressing our opinions but some of us make statements that insinuate it is ALPA policy. And while you may have not stated ALPA does not want us talking on APC you certainly implied it.

Previous post: "I suspected this might come up and I respectfully disagree. I don't think talking about what we want or ideas from other carrier's contracts in a "public" forum hurts our negotiating position."

And your response: "And yet the people responsible for negotiating contracts on pilots behalves across the industry tend to think so. We as pilots love to maintain and display our independence of thought, even when we're given guidance to the contrary by those who are more knowledgeable on a particular subject."

As for the drive by comment; Thanks I thought it was a great illustration of the old ALPA way of doing things and how we were striving to get past that. Your attempt to silence any contract talk here sure seems old school.

The first post in this thread was very educational with lots of good ideas. And it was not anything I would have heard from ALPA. I do not agree with all the suggestions but apparently ALPA does not want me to continue discussion.

All that aside; I would say that cap and bank does not have to mean you can't work your arse off for several months and then take several months off later in the year. It all depends on what the CAP is and how the bank is spent. It would probably mean that you can't average 120 hours for 12 months.

 

This thread, titled "FedEx Contract Ideas" sort of reminds me of the Chinese take-out we had last week. We keep the menus from each of our favorite take-out places handy, so that when the mood hits, we can take a look and decide which delicacies we want to bring home. In no way, regardless of how hungry we are, will we be ordering each and every item on their menu, because: 1) that would be way too much food; and 2) I'm not sure that we could afford to give up all that money for some items that we really don't need or want. However, the idea of having said menu is a big help in deciding what we really need or want at our next Chinese take-out meal.

Personally, I feel that this is the perfect forum to bring forth ideas about what guys feel is important in the next contract. Having said that, that doesn't mean that any or all of those ideas will actually make it into the next contract. What it does however, is to enlighten guys who may never have either thought of, nor experienced a situation that caused someone to post an idea here. So in effect, this thread serves the purpose of making all who read it, aware of possible contract negotiating points. Nothing more and nothing less.

JJ

 

DL I see your arguments and at some level I agree with them, but I feel the free exchange of ideas concerning the next CBA overrides the downside. As long as people don't start drawing lines in the sand on this forum, or stating what they will or won't accept, then many of the previous ideas are very thought provoking and may not have been thought of by many. We each have our pet peeves with the CBA.

My own personal desires are that the next CBA must have a COLA (cost of living adjustment). Whether we see the hyper inflation that many economists predict, very likely during the time frame of our next CBA, or not, this is like an insurance policy for QOL degradation due to earnings erosion. It really doesn't matter how much improvement in work rules or pay we get (or don't get) if it is eroded by high inflation; if the high inflation doesn't materialize then we at least keep pace with what does occur. COLA is a no brainer in my book, but that doesn't mean it's a no vote. That is up to each member and his conscience.

Many of the ideas expressed here are excellent and if it provokes members to contact their reps with their prioritized list then this forum has provided a valuable service. On the other hand if this thread just lets members vent and not contact their reps with their desires it has weakened us. The key here is involvement and one's willingness to draw a line in the sand when the proper time comes, otherwise we're all just wasting our time here.

 

What exactly is your point here? You say that like you're exposing some evil conspiracy. I want the same thing as everyone else, a successful negotiation and a great new contract, so yeah I'm going to squawk when I see people doing things, even well-intentioned, that could be contrary to that goal. That doesn't make my comments any sort of official ALPA policy, although to be fair there is some written (Block email) evidence that our leadership would prefer to keep our most important wishes out of print for the company ahead of openers. However my comments aren't ALPA specific. You'll find similar views from the NC/MEC's at carriers with unions other than ALPA as well. I don't think the advice in this respect would be drastically different if we had professional negotiators instead of volunteers.

We have a lot of smart people here, but sometimes you have to be smart enough to know when to ****. You may feel that's 'old school', and yes I learned it from people you'd probably consider 'old school' supported by my experiences in the industry. None of what is said here will be taken as official direction by our leadership, nor should it be, but it does have the potential to be used against us. I don't think ALPA or me are telling you not to have discussions about this stuff, just to be smart about how it's done.