abcmemphis

Yo Popeye,

"The HKG FDA improvements sound good, but I prefer to not spend ONE DIME on them. Those that are over there did so of their own discretion. Those enhancements are more for the company than they are for the rest of us."

Thanks for your brotherly support for us FDA step children. I think not one dime should be spent on increasing 727 Capt Pay, as those folks (You included) "DID SO AT THEIR OWN DISCRETION"

Popeye

Yo ABC,

Were you inversed into HKG? Or did you bid it thinking this was your big chance to fly some heavy metal and make some bigger bucks? Perhaps your circumstances didn't require more secure ground transportation provisions, or schooling for your children, or an adequate housing allowance or the move package provisions. It must have looked good to you regardless how it may have looked to the rest of the membership. I had no intention of going to HKG, but I voted no because I did not think it was good enough for any of us. Forgive me, it was apparently good enough for you.

If you are wishing for a better FDA package now, I guess the 32% of us were right. I doesn't surprise me that you might be in favor of this deal, if the 777 pilots got a little sugar they'd be voting for it also.

Full disclosure, the 727 pilots took a big hit under 4a2b. When you get your FDA enhancements, the domestic pilots will indeed get hammered again. My agenda has been and remains in favor of real contract enhancements for the majority, not for the small minority that made their own bed but is now afraid to sleep in it.

We have opposing views on the subject, clearly. But not because I am out to get some random demographic. If that isn't clear enough, we will just have to agree to disagree.

abcmemphis

Was not inversed, nor did I look at it as "MY BIG CHANCE TO FLY HEAVY METAL AND MAKE BIG BUCKS" I was already a HEAVY METAL/BIG BUCKS KIND OF GUY, if that is how you look your fellow pilots flying in the same uniform as you, just a different A/C. I happened to be an excessed HEAVY METAL/BIG BUCKS kind of guy. When 90 Captains needed to be excessed (FROM SAID HEAVY METAL GROUP), and some 180 Bid to relieve that excess, a bunch of senior FO's who choose to by pass their chance at becoming HEAVY METAL/BIG BUCKS GUYS in the previous years, used this as their opportunity to bid up. SO, even though I too voted no on the original FDA agreement, I choose to make the best of my excess situation and make the jump overseas. SO PLEASE FORGIVE THE @#$% OUT OF ME for voting no and still going.
And, as one who was part of the 32% who you consider right, and again, PLEASE FORGIVE THE $#&*$% OUT OF ME, it bothers me just a little when anyone who did vote yes on the FDA agreement now feels we should use the FDA's as any kind of leverage against the company.
As for your FULL DISCLOSURE under 4a2b, my last month as a MEM Airbus Capt, my RLG was 52 hours and my W2 was down probably more than yours.
So I am sleeping in a bed where i fully participated in 4a2b, fully participated in being excessed because by pass FO's choose to use that opportunity to upgrade, fully participated in an FDA agreement I voted against, and am fully prepared to participate if this TA is voted down, especially by my bretheren who want to use FDA's as leverage and not spend one dime to make the FDAs better. When you say you want a TA for the majority, you are probably the guy who would also vote to axe the A plan for new hires in order to keep his.
Tell you what, I never mentioned, or even hinted how I would vote on the TA. I was just making a comment on your "not spend one dime" philosophy. You have no idea whether our ideas are opposing.
As a side note to all my fellow 727 Capts, my comment towards you guys was not sincere, just a way of making a point to LIGHT METAL/LITTLE PAY POPEYE.

Popeye

ABC, I must give you an F on your assessments.

It seems you have even more reason to support my opinion about spending energy on fixing the HKG FDA. It was bad enough that our votes were not part of the majority to defeat the measure. However, to you and the rest that bid the domicile under those provisions, you undermined our chances of getting them enhanced. If it wasn't for the pilots that did NOT go over there, the company would not have made its unilateral enhancements after DW/BC told us that we had the best deal we were ever going to get.

It is sad how short our memories are. Here we are today saying very similar things. I think if we send this TA back, as we should have done with the the HKG FDA LOA the last time, we will see some more tangibile and well deserved enhancements to the entire crew force. I am not out to get the HKG pilots as you think. I think they took the bait and went over there for a variety of reasons, some less noble than others. Today, we have much bigger fish to fry, such as 4A2B, and some other issues not tied to FTDT rules that can and should be addressed. I would prefer to see our NC efforts aimed at those issues prior to fixing the FDAs.

Another issue that I am strongly in favor of, and have posted about previously, is that NEW HIRE pay should be enhanced. It is embarassing for us, as a union at such a financially strong company, to treat other professionals to be of so little worth. So I think your personnal attack upon me is misguided, rude and irrational.

Opposing View

I see ABCs and Popeyes point of view. I think Popeye makes his point clearly though concerning .. A. Those that bid the FDA under the present rules went there knowing what was offered. B. That although the FDA in the present TA is good for all, there is to much else that that needs to be signed off on with this TA that need to be fixed now and not later. That would be a benefit to the pilots on a much wider scale than just the FDA folks.

Being excessed out of a seat and having to go to an FDA to keep from taking a big pay hit sucks. Unfortunately, I think the excess was because of a crummy FDA LOA that 68% thought was good enough and it wouldnt affect them, and where we had leverage. Lets not make the same mistake twice.

The main benefits of the TA for our group as a whole is the raise, safety stuff, and a few other things. Much more needs to be done. And just improving the FDA stuff isnt enough. I would like to know if this TA was arrived at because the Company made the offer, and we accepted it right off the bat, like last time. That would tell me that the Company really wants it, making it a bargaining chip. Others would disagree, as they already have.

magic rat

I don't know about you guys, but the Wilson poll I took didn't have a "Throw away all of our leverage with a TA" question....

JethroF15

After reading the "shots" fired between Pop and ABC I have to side with Pop. I think we have to take a look at the "Big Picture". Nothing against fixing the current HK FDA but we gave up that leverage when 68% swallowed DW and BC's "that's the best we can get" song and dance. Let's not make the same mistake twice. I could care less about the money right now. There are many, MANY other areas that need to be fixed that don't involve a pay raise or scheduling rules. Those who choose to forget about 4a2b are doomed to repeat it! And by the way, I'm really glad the NC had the time and energy to get some changes made to Section 18 in this TA!

magic rat

So, who's going to vote what?

Figured the FDA bubas will vote yes, senior Bus pilots NO (so they could still SIBA), 757 guys/gals YES (for FDA improvements), MD...split?, 72...?

Anybody that's been screwed over from another airline contract negotiation NO.

What say you?

Falconjet

I was swayed toward the yes vote after attending the roadshow meeting. As I read the emails and updates from the NC and my block rep I am now pretty much committed to a no vote.

The hard sell reeks too much of the old regime for me.

I don't know what will happen if its voted down, but I know that there are too many issues that could have been fixed in this TA but weren't to accept this offer.

FJ

ptarmigan

You need to think about the consequences of your actions either way.

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