fedupbusdriver

I was at the road show this week sitting near a group of Flex guys. During the Q and A one of them asked a question about degradation of the instructor force due to this TA. BC answered the question and then DW got up and made a few personal statements about his feelings on the matter. He ended with a remark about how the Flex guys would have to work their own deal with mgmt, just like they worked their last under the table good deal. My question is, What is he refering to? And what is there in the changes under this TA that is p****ing the Flex guys off? It seemed very uncomfortable and confrontational from where I was sitting, and as soon as DW finished with his little barb, 5 Flex guys got up and left.

Could someone shed soom light on this? (By the way, I am not quoting DW, this was just my interpretation of the tone and substance of the answer.)

koz2000

A couple things that I'm aware of.
1. The days they work (especially off site) will only count as a R-day value. As well there is something about the front and back end travel day not counting as much as well. This means they'll have to work a full R-line month.

2. Something about the fly days has changed for the worse as well. I think these will be PDO.

3. The dual qual for backseaters is going away. (Can be an F/O but flex to the back.)

I know there had been a lot of double dipping where a flex would work his sim in the morning, get called for draft to do a support sim and still be home for dinner. 6 hrs reg time + 6 hrs DFT and still be home for dinner?... I think this was a common occurence. There had also been a flex that would "fail" his Sim-6 students in MIA, MCO, or MSP; they would have to retrain, and guess who could stay an extra day at DFT to do the retrain, and the company wouldn't even have to buy another plane ticket....

Positives of these changes is thoes who have sat in training dept, racked up the big W-2's, and rarely flown the line will probably be headed back to the line. There's less chances that they'll stay long at all.

Bitme

I did not hear DW say anything of the kind that they should go cut their own deal. Period! He referred to times past and their own deal making. Concerning flex's getting landings, under the TA if a flex puts in to flex for a month it can not be denied unlike now where requests to flex routinely get denied. That's what I remember.

Albief15

The "under the table" deal (from what I heard on the outside) was a few years back a bunch of 727 flex IPs were NOT going to be paid POPA or whatever the extra pay was called. About 25 of 30 (or so...) signed a resignation letter and asked to return to the line. Shortly thereafter they got their POPA, and the company did not want to try to replace that much IP experience in a short time.

It was a classic example of self help. Those guys did the math, and were willing to return to the line if flying the box wasn't worth the extra pay to the company. Since the crew force has NO REQUIREMENT to man the training shop, I think the same thing could easily happen again.

One thing to keep in mind--it appears the only losers in the TA were the FLEX guys. The LCAs got a well deserved increase in override. So--MGT 101 is divide labor, and I think the FLEX guys lost and the LCAs won in this arrangment. That ought to keep whatever dysfunction exisits between training and standards going for a while.

One simple fact is people tend to be envious when they think someone else has a "good deal" that they don't get. Because FLEX/LCAs get picked by management and not by seniority, there will always be points of friction between the "chosen few" and the line crew. I think some FLEXs believe they've been singled out to take hits out of jealousy of some of the crew force. Those guys do tend to do well on the W-2, but then again most work a lot too. I know some of the stuff is VLT/DRF, but as a Flex if you aren't a "team player" you need to remember your job is "at will". If you want the gig, you have to be willing to work by their rules. I tend to be a pretty upbeat, optimistic guy by nature, and I think the union didn't burn green stamps on the Chapter 11 because there were convinced the FLEX guys can use their OWN leverage and negotiate a better deal, not out of malice. I just find is ironic that the company went so hard after one of the most "loyal" and "company oriented" groups... What I find REALLY ironic is that some of the FLEX guys are mad at the union instead of the company about that... There has to be a bad guy, but who "sold them out..." in their mind is up to debate.

Again--got no dog in this fight. I've been a school house IP for the last 8 years, and I cannot imagine a worse hell than teaching someone how to recognize an L Trip or a slow system A hydraulic leak. However, lots of great guys I know work as FLEX guys, and some of our 727 LCAs are my favorite captains (and not just because you get bumped sometimes...) I hope the FLEX guys can move on, stick together, and get whatever irks them about the TA'd chapter 11 fixed to their liking. If they cannot--the (in my opinion) best job in the world is still waiting for them on the line. And no...there is no sarcasm implied in the last line...

fecav8r

I'd be willing to bet you that there won't be a mass exodus out of the training department. It's still a good gig and the guys enjoy sleeping in their own beds. You can still make good coin doing the job.

RedeyeAV8r

Plus they would have to re-learn to fly to places other that FLL, ORD and CLT

Huck

Or Stansted for that all-important international experience.....

Booyakasha!

Say again?

TonyC

Rather than propogate rumor, we could actually look at Section 11.

Flex Instructors have always worked the same number of days as Reserve Line Holders, and days are credited at the Reserve Day credit. An extra day of work is NOT 6 hours at 150%, it's Reserve Day credit @ 150%. No change.


What seems to torque some of these guys is the Line Check Airmen, the guys that put their tickets on the line day in and day out, got a bigger raise in terms of override. Apparently they don't want to fly the airplane much, because they don't see the advantage in the improved fly day arrangement, the GOAL of actually flying 100 hours - - that's right - - ONE HUNDRED - - per year. And they seem to overlook the possibility of being a Flex AND a LCA at the same time (there's the increased override if you're willing to put your ticket on the line) so they can actually fly the airplane and have some credibility in the Sim.

They also seem to miss the fact that there is now a provision to be domiciled at one base and Flex in another. That means they can hold ANC MD-11 Capt, use the Company provided tickets to commute there once a month to fly a 2-day trip, and spend the rest of the time in the schoolhouse.

ORRR... they can live in MIA, be domiciled in MEM, and train "offsite" in MIA, again using the Company-provided ticket... well... you get the idea.



Listen, I don't mean to sound like I'm doggin' on the Flex Instructors - - I was one. It's a good deal, and it will still be a good deal. If you want to evaluate Section 11 as a whole, take a look at the "changes" version and read all that stuff in RED about firing guys for training failures that is GONE. Then read the stuff in BLUE that shows how we'll actually train guys to succeed.


Yeah, you can find one particular set of circumstances where it will be less advantageous for a particular guy, but I think even THAT guy will have to admit that Section 11 is a net gain for us all. It's been TA'd for a while, and the Flex's are just now getting around to whining about it.



Relax Flexes - - I'm just kiddin'.






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fly2ski

It's been TA'd for a while, and the Flex's are just now getting around to whining about it.

Naw they were all going to quit in APR06 when I was there. I guess it's hard giving up 300k plus a year for all the "hard work" that most of then do .