Sell your soul for $20 per day..... FDX
07-31-2013, 06:48 AM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: 1559
Posts: 1,534
Here is the full report:
http://www.ipapilot.org/nprm/NASAFed...tionsStudy.pdf
Be careful what you wish for. Scroll down to the Recommendations and pay particular attention to bullet number two:
2. The night off represents an important opportunity for recuperation. It breaks the pattern of accumulating sleep debt, with its accumulating impairment of alertness and performance. Its position in the sequence of night duties needs to be related to the rate of sleep loss imposed by the schedules. On the Destination-Layover pattern, for example, it would clearly have been unwise to add a fourth consecutive night of flying when a third of the crew members had already lost more than 8hr of sleep after three nights of flying. In contrast, on the Out-and-Back pattern, only a quarter of crew members had lost more than 8 hr sleep after 5 nights of flying. The use of naps as a fatigue countermeasure in overnight cargo operations deserves further attention (39)
The recommendations from the study are no more than three consecutive nights of flying for hub-turns that layover at the out station. On the other hand, five consecutive nights of AM O&B where deemed less onerous. Had those recommendations been implemented, week-on, week-off schedules would've been eliminated. FPA and ALPA never wanted to pursue those recommendations. You can't complain about the NASA sleep study being ignored without knowing what is in there.
http://www.ipapilot.org/nprm/NASAFed...tionsStudy.pdf
Be careful what you wish for. Scroll down to the Recommendations and pay particular attention to bullet number two:
2. The night off represents an important opportunity for recuperation. It breaks the pattern of accumulating sleep debt, with its accumulating impairment of alertness and performance. Its position in the sequence of night duties needs to be related to the rate of sleep loss imposed by the schedules. On the Destination-Layover pattern, for example, it would clearly have been unwise to add a fourth consecutive night of flying when a third of the crew members had already lost more than 8hr of sleep after three nights of flying. In contrast, on the Out-and-Back pattern, only a quarter of crew members had lost more than 8 hr sleep after 5 nights of flying. The use of naps as a fatigue countermeasure in overnight cargo operations deserves further attention (39)
The recommendations from the study are no more than three consecutive nights of flying for hub-turns that layover at the out station. On the other hand, five consecutive nights of AM O&B where deemed less onerous. Had those recommendations been implemented, week-on, week-off schedules would've been eliminated. FPA and ALPA never wanted to pursue those recommendations. You can't complain about the NASA sleep study being ignored without knowing what is in there.
Last edited by MX727; 07-31-2013 at 06:58 AM.
07-31-2013, 07:20 AM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2012
Posts: 260
Live in a glass house
Originally Posted by Gunter
Yeah, you're allowed to have an opinion. You're also allowed to have a persecution complex if that is your preference.
No persecution complex here, just stating the obvious.
Word of advice, consider yourself investigation worthy anytime you go to work. The housing allowance wickets are too much of a temptation for the company to make money by denying it. You'll never see me bid HKG.
I live here, wife, kids, dogs and fish. I live live in a glass house and follow the rules as we know them. I also work that way. We all have seen how living on the margins can help you become a target.
Outside counsel didn't do so well. The union advice was to take the deal and keep your job. You're going to have to define "winning" a civil suit.
More than likely, if they get a decent settlement, part of it will be you can't come back to work ever. If the settlement exceeds their probable lifetime earnings and retirement it might be considered a win. With their youth I doubt this will be the case. The stress of working on that project would never be worth it to me.
No persecution complex here, just stating the obvious.
Word of advice, consider yourself investigation worthy anytime you go to work. The housing allowance wickets are too much of a temptation for the company to make money by denying it. You'll never see me bid HKG.
I live here, wife, kids, dogs and fish. I live live in a glass house and follow the rules as we know them. I also work that way. We all have seen how living on the margins can help you become a target.
Outside counsel didn't do so well. The union advice was to take the deal and keep your job. You're going to have to define "winning" a civil suit.
More than likely, if they get a decent settlement, part of it will be you can't come back to work ever. If the settlement exceeds their probable lifetime earnings and retirement it might be considered a win. With their youth I doubt this will be the case. The stress of working on that project would never be worth it to me.
The one that settled is the only one the company really wanted back. The company dug a hole on that one and filled it as best they could. Heard from a management source it wasn't a good deal. Yeah, job back, along with I'm sure some shackles.
The others will spend years recouping their losses. I agree, no job ever, but it will be a large out of court, non disclosure deal. How much are your principals worth, is what it comes down to? That at least in the case on the one involved I know very well. (I hope that is something you and I don't have to ever experience)
Last edited by HKFlyr; 07-31-2013 at 07:55 AM.
07-31-2013, 07:30 AM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,931
Originally Posted by HKFlyr
Heard from a management source it wasn't a good deal.
07-31-2013, 07:34 AM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2012
Posts: 260
(b) Fatigue Risk Management Plan-
(1) SUBMISSION OF FATIGUE RISK MANAGEMENT PLAN BY PART 121 AIR CARRIERS- Not later than 90 days after the date of enactment of this Act, each part 121 air carrier shall submit to the Administrator for review and acceptance a fatigue risk management plan for the carrier’s pilots.
You mean this? I guess I am missing where there are requirements for enforcement on limiting duty hours, circadian disruptions, etc if the data shows something to be onorous, or unsafe...
Famous words..."we are in compliance with FAR flight time duty times.." It again comes back down on us to manage the fatigue, since we were cut out of the new regs.
But, I know many members don't want to see it implemented as it will possibly make commuting more difficult, or mess up week on, week off schedules.
Again, all about money.
Data is data. Change the schedules...now then I will believe they are doing something positive with the data.
(1) SUBMISSION OF FATIGUE RISK MANAGEMENT PLAN BY PART 121 AIR CARRIERS- Not later than 90 days after the date of enactment of this Act, each part 121 air carrier shall submit to the Administrator for review and acceptance a fatigue risk management plan for the carrier’s pilots.
You mean this? I guess I am missing where there are requirements for enforcement on limiting duty hours, circadian disruptions, etc if the data shows something to be onorous, or unsafe...
Famous words..."we are in compliance with FAR flight time duty times.." It again comes back down on us to manage the fatigue, since we were cut out of the new regs.
But, I know many members don't want to see it implemented as it will possibly make commuting more difficult, or mess up week on, week off schedules.
Again, all about money.
Data is data. Change the schedules...now then I will believe they are doing something positive with the data.
07-31-2013, 08:42 AM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: B777 Captain
Posts: 566
Originally Posted by HKFlyr
(b) Fatigue Risk Management Plan-
(1) SUBMISSION OF FATIGUE RISK MANAGEMENT PLAN BY PART 121 AIR CARRIERS- Not later than 90 days after the date of enactment of this Act, each part 121 air carrier shall submit to the Administrator for review and acceptance a fatigue risk management plan for the carrier’s pilots.
You mean this? I guess I am missing where there are requirements for enforcement on limiting duty hours, circadian disruptions, etc if the data shows something to be onorous, or unsafe...
Famous words..."we are in compliance with FAR flight time duty times.." It again comes back down on us to manage the fatigue, since we were cut out of the new regs.
But, I know many members don't want to see it implemented as it will possibly make commuting more difficult, or mess up week on, week off schedules.
Again, all about money.
Data is data. Change the schedules...now then I will believe they are doing something positive with the data.
(1) SUBMISSION OF FATIGUE RISK MANAGEMENT PLAN BY PART 121 AIR CARRIERS- Not later than 90 days after the date of enactment of this Act, each part 121 air carrier shall submit to the Administrator for review and acceptance a fatigue risk management plan for the carrier’s pilots.
You mean this? I guess I am missing where there are requirements for enforcement on limiting duty hours, circadian disruptions, etc if the data shows something to be onorous, or unsafe...
Famous words..."we are in compliance with FAR flight time duty times.." It again comes back down on us to manage the fatigue, since we were cut out of the new regs.
But, I know many members don't want to see it implemented as it will possibly make commuting more difficult, or mess up week on, week off schedules.
Again, all about money.
Data is data. Change the schedules...now then I will believe they are doing something positive with the data.
08-01-2013, 12:25 AM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2012
Posts: 260
I have read and understand most if the rule....however, how long will that process take(it is the government...), can the data be manipulated(statistics don't lie, but liars use statistics), watered down, politicized, waived or "alternative means of compliance". Lets not forget the power the company has with the Feds...(remember the cargo carve out)
But I will give you that I hope it does make a difference. I'm doubtful it will be much of a difference or anytime in the next 3 years.
But I will give you that I hope it does make a difference. I'm doubtful it will be much of a difference or anytime in the next 3 years.
08-01-2013, 04:38 AM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: B777 Captain
Posts: 566
Originally Posted by HKFlyr
I have read and understand most if the rule....however, how long will that process take(it is the government...), can the data be manipulated(statistics don't lie, but liars use statistics), watered down, politicized, waived or "alternative means of compliance". Lets not forget the power the company has with the Feds...(remember the cargo carve out)
But I will give you that I hope it does make a difference. I'm doubtful it will be much of a difference or anytime in the next 3 years.
But I will give you that I hope it does make a difference. I'm doubtful it will be much of a difference or anytime in the next 3 years.
I agree with you regarding 3 years, real scientific studies and analysis do not happen overnight.
08-01-2013, 09:52 PM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: MD-11 Capt
Posts: 330
You chronic complaines might need to read this.
Rush Limbaugh
It's always seductive to hang around people who tell you how mean the business is -- whatever your business is -- and how unfair it is and how they got screwed by a bunch of people that didn't care. It's easy to find failures, and it's easy to be seduced by failure.
Rush Limbaugh
It's always seductive to hang around people who tell you how mean the business is -- whatever your business is -- and how unfair it is and how they got screwed by a bunch of people that didn't care. It's easy to find failures, and it's easy to be seduced by failure.
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