Lineslug

Can't comment on what was behind the IPA's position at the time because I was not privy to what was going on behind closed doors, but it's good to hear that Rob Dorsey is doing ok. I got my initial 747 capt. upgrade bounces from him in 1998, and remember him as a great instructor. I landed that thing so hard the first time (and thankfully the only time) that I dropped the O2 masks in the back. His only comment after the touch and go was to ask me if I was ex-Navy... ;-)

L'il J.Seinfeld

Mgt MEF and JA2 to the right seat of captains easily saves the company a few hundred pilots.

Need4Speed

Dorsey made the case that without a full unification of all UPS pilots, the IPA would always be left in a weakened state. For example, if UPS did not have the ability to counter “No Waivers, No Favors" with Management Emergency Flying, how long do you think the furlough would have lasted? I would argue that the duration would have been much shorter and the number of affected crewmembers would have been much smaller. Or, is it possible that the furlough may not have happened at all? If I were one of the unfortunate pilots who spent 4 years struggling to survive through a furlough, I would certainly want to know.

The case Dorsey made fell on deaf ears at the IPA. What seemed so simple and obvious to Dorsey was apparently much more difficult for the founding IPA leadership to understand - and it is a reasonable argument that those who were furloughed paid a heavy price for this misstep. History has certainly proven Dorsey correct.

L'il J.Seinfeld

That may all be true. However, 150 idle DC-8 pilots, flights being canxed left and right out of ANC, and the worst economy in 60 years had a lot to do with it too.

whalesurfer

I know you're an FQM yourself, can't remember if you're retired or still here however you seem to have a very level-headed approach to the unique "issues" we have at this company.

At this point - what would you have done differently if you were on the other side of the isle, ie IPA, and in particular on the negotiation committee? I realize it might be difficult for you to answer based on your allegiances. However for the sake of this argument, do you see any possibility of the two sides ever coming to an agreement or at the very least reaching a détente acceptable to both parties?

Swedish Blender

Don't mistake money for control. Obviously those are things everyone likes to point out, but didn't really cause the furlough.

Let's be honest, UPS was run by a guy who was concerned about numbers. If it was really about numbers, the company would have saved more money by continuing the job protection MOU. Think how long they could have milked that. What was it, 140 mil? They literally could've come back every year saying they needed more.

At the end of the day, they furloughed pilots and didn't save the amount the MOU would have.

So there are factors one could try to hang their hat on about the furlough, but at the end of the day it was about control.

easyflying

Anybody know what it means when application goes from active to on file?

Need4Speed

Tough question, Whalesurfer. Dorsey tried to impress upon the IPA that they only had a short window of opportunity for an integration. He knew that once retirement, medical and stock benefits had been accrued under the corporate plan, sidestepping to the IPA plan would be a very difficult sell. It's not so much the value difference of the plans - it's the manner and time frame in which they accrue.

Dorsey, and those who stood with him, took a tremendous leap of faith when they risked their careers to unify the entire pilot group. They were going up against a very powerful company, but they were willing to take the risk. Their success hinged completely on having the support of the IPA, and they were confident that they would have it. They were dead wrong. What the IPA did to Dorsey was inexcusable. Many FQMs had a front row seat as they watched the IPA tie a lead weight to Dorsey's ankle and shove him overboard. Will any FQM ever trust their livelihood and future to the IPA after that? Tough call....... would you?

I've seen other posts suggesting that the courts somehow decide the matter of integration. As you know, that was the whole point of the Dorsey case. The IPA's testimony regarding Class & Craft in the Dorsey case made their point loud and clear - that FQM Class & Craft is different, and that FQMs are not eligible for representation. I'm no legal expert, but that would seem slam the door on that option.

The bottom line is that in order for the IPA to ever unify the entire pilot group after what has happened in the past, they're going to have to pull a rabbit out of the hat - and I don't know what that means. But, I can toss out this one observation. In my opinion, the IPA approached both integration attempts with anger and emotion, rather than logic and leadership. Anyone who does not believe this better get used to the current structure, because you will live with it for the rest of your careers.

As for me.... yes, enjoying retirement. I rarely go to these message boards. They're just too toxic. But, every now and then my curiosity gets the best of me, and I get weak. I need to work on that problem....

Pilot7576

Whenever I read a post or listen to a NURP (retired no less) telling the IPA how to conduct it's business, I think of the "wah, wah, wah" of Charlie Brown cartoons. Leave union business to the IPA and enjoy your retirement built on the backs of UNION pilots who support each other and really shouldn't feel allegiance to any NURP or scab pontificating on union integration of substandard pilots who chose, for the most part, to go into management instead of flying the line.

You NURPS (retired and active) are mostly an embarassment to the line pilots who have to explain why we have pogues like you in positions of authority instead of someone who has "been there and done that."

Pilot7576

Need4Speed

Believe be, Pilot7576, I can understand your frustration. I'm not trying to defend the way things are, and I'm not trying to tell anyone how to conduct their business. I was simply answering Whalesurfer's question.

But, this has certainly reminded me why it's never a good idea to post anything on these toxic message boards. I will take your advice.