Upshiring
#61
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,339
756/767Pilot - I asked him the question because I'm still trying to understand what happened back then. Were you around? Do you understand it and if so can you explain? I'm serious. No one seems to understand why we made that decision?
I hate the current set-up, we all do and there seems to be no solution in sight. Former RJ operators and pilots from other companies, people who've never worked here before, are being trained as 757/767, 747 and A300 captains and check airman, while you and I look at 15-20 year upgrades. Right at this moment. In the meantime we have very experienced line pilots who've flown the very same type of airplanes and operations for 25+ years who aren't check airman?? The senior folks have been watching this spectacle for decades. Bizarre, illogical, unsafe and plainly wrong but it has been going on and it is still going on. I'm sure you too have already heard some of their logic and excuses. "Oh, I was simply asked during my interview if I was interested in becoming an instructor. Figured it was my vast regional instructor background they liked..."
So 75/76 - are you disagreeing with the quote below? In order to move forward don't we have to learn from our mistakes?? Many senior guys I've flown with said that we slammed the door on Dorsey and that it was a huge mistake, one we're still paying for. True or not? What IS the solution? IS there one?
Dorsey, and those who stood with him, took a tremendous leap of faith when they risked their careers to unify the entire pilot group. They were going up against a very powerful company, but they were willing to take the risk. Their success hinged completely on having the support of the IPA, and they were confident that they would have it. They were dead wrong. What the IPA did to Dorsey was inexcusable. Many FQMs had a front row seat as they watched the IPA tie a lead weight to Dorsey's ankle and shove him overboard. Will any FQM ever trust their livelihood and future to the IPA after that? Tough call....... would you?
#62
New Hire
Joined APC: Dec 2014
Posts: 1
Regarding: What IPA founders did wrong in the Dorsey matter.
I won't quote, or respond, to any one post or individual on this matter. I will try and tell some of the "rest of the story". I won't respond again, so all those with agendas, or half-truths, can continue to have a field day with this. Have fun. If you tell the same lie over and over, some people will believe it.
Since the first days of IPA we have had people try and tear it down. We have members with their own agendas. We have had "management" pilots masquerading as IPA members. (Maybe some are on here?) We have people that were simply misinformed, and liked it. I'm not sure exactly who the people stirring the s--- are this time, and don't care.
This Just This Once response is for current and future IPA members who would like some more information.
Starting IPA was a huge job, especially against both the company and the existing union. A lot of people put their careers on the line. Many line pilots thought they would lose their jobs. We still got it done. Not everything was done 100% correctly. I'm sure the critics are perfect. I certainly wish they had been elected and could have done it right!
OPINIONS:
Management knew "shoot 1, 1000 tremble." The company knew it would be worth paying some bucks at the other end. I hear they had to.
One was shot. The rest trembled. Ploy worked.
Yes, courts found in plaintiff's favor.
But, a court case has nothing to do with an NMB decision. You must go through entire NMB process. Must have about 30% cards to even start the process. This was not the case. Cards are only the starting point. How do you get cards from people that are apparently too scared to sign cards?
The representation of the "management" pilots was, and still is, up to them. They seemed, and still seem, to want someone else to do it for them. Good luck. There was a huge personality difference between the average pilot who voted for IPA, and the average Fleet Supervisor.
Many might not remember where many of the original Fleet Supervisors worked just prior to joining the company. It's relevant! You really think these people would've been good union members? You really think they were going to stand with the plaintiff? Remember, this was going to be a completely different venue because court cases do not make NMB cases, no matter what you've been told.
Day one. No union members in the training department. Goal: get union members in the training department. Goal: eventually blur the lines between union and Fleet Supervisors. Goal: let them get organized, but they have to do it. We can only help. Eventually, one IPA president went for broke on this issue. It didn't work, then either, because you can't force them to stand up and be counted. Fear is a powerful weapon against some. And did we mention the differences between line pilots and Fleet Supervisors? Yes, we did.
To meet IPA goals there are 2 choices. 1. We can go after the people. 2. We can go after the work. Considering who the people were (and maybe are), the choice was made to go after the work. That takes time. It is still ongoing. In the meantime there are more IPA members in training. The Fleet Supervisor (now ACP) position has been severely downgraded in pay and benefits. Progress. You remember where you work, right?
Short recap:
1. Much of the argument the IPA founders screwed all IPA members forever is based on a false assumption.
2. You can't force people to stand up for themselves.
Just This Once.
Adios
I won't quote, or respond, to any one post or individual on this matter. I will try and tell some of the "rest of the story". I won't respond again, so all those with agendas, or half-truths, can continue to have a field day with this. Have fun. If you tell the same lie over and over, some people will believe it.
Since the first days of IPA we have had people try and tear it down. We have members with their own agendas. We have had "management" pilots masquerading as IPA members. (Maybe some are on here?) We have people that were simply misinformed, and liked it. I'm not sure exactly who the people stirring the s--- are this time, and don't care.
This Just This Once response is for current and future IPA members who would like some more information.
Starting IPA was a huge job, especially against both the company and the existing union. A lot of people put their careers on the line. Many line pilots thought they would lose their jobs. We still got it done. Not everything was done 100% correctly. I'm sure the critics are perfect. I certainly wish they had been elected and could have done it right!
OPINIONS:
Management knew "shoot 1, 1000 tremble." The company knew it would be worth paying some bucks at the other end. I hear they had to.
One was shot. The rest trembled. Ploy worked.
Yes, courts found in plaintiff's favor.
But, a court case has nothing to do with an NMB decision. You must go through entire NMB process. Must have about 30% cards to even start the process. This was not the case. Cards are only the starting point. How do you get cards from people that are apparently too scared to sign cards?
The representation of the "management" pilots was, and still is, up to them. They seemed, and still seem, to want someone else to do it for them. Good luck. There was a huge personality difference between the average pilot who voted for IPA, and the average Fleet Supervisor.
Many might not remember where many of the original Fleet Supervisors worked just prior to joining the company. It's relevant! You really think these people would've been good union members? You really think they were going to stand with the plaintiff? Remember, this was going to be a completely different venue because court cases do not make NMB cases, no matter what you've been told.
Day one. No union members in the training department. Goal: get union members in the training department. Goal: eventually blur the lines between union and Fleet Supervisors. Goal: let them get organized, but they have to do it. We can only help. Eventually, one IPA president went for broke on this issue. It didn't work, then either, because you can't force them to stand up and be counted. Fear is a powerful weapon against some. And did we mention the differences between line pilots and Fleet Supervisors? Yes, we did.
To meet IPA goals there are 2 choices. 1. We can go after the people. 2. We can go after the work. Considering who the people were (and maybe are), the choice was made to go after the work. That takes time. It is still ongoing. In the meantime there are more IPA members in training. The Fleet Supervisor (now ACP) position has been severely downgraded in pay and benefits. Progress. You remember where you work, right?
Short recap:
1. Much of the argument the IPA founders screwed all IPA members forever is based on a false assumption.
2. You can't force people to stand up for themselves.
Just This Once.
Adios
#63
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,339
I won't quote, or respond, to any one post or individual on this matter. I will try and tell some of the "rest of the story".
..
1. Much of the argument the IPA founders screwed all IPA members forever is based on a false assumption.
2. You can't force people to stand up for themselves.
Just This Once.
Adios
..
1. Much of the argument the IPA founders screwed all IPA members forever is based on a false assumption.
2. You can't force people to stand up for themselves.
Just This Once.
Adios
Point taken, done with this subject.
#64
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 62
The great thing about court records is that they are out there for all to see. I don't need to try to convince anyone that the founding leadership of the IPA did everything in their power to prevent the integration, and unification of all UPS pilots - I only need to point to these court records. Here are a few key excerpts from the US District Court in the Dorsey vs. UPS case (this is the original court ruling, which Dorsey lost largely based on the IPA's testimony regarding Class & Craft - Dorsey later won on appeal):
* After he (Dorsey) wrote to all Flight Qualified Supervisors about the efforts to gain union representation, the IPA informed Dorsey's group of its refusal to recognize the eligibility of Flight Qualified Supervisors.
* This is not a case in which the union is fighting to represent a group of workers over the objections of management. Instead this is an unusual case in which a sub-group of workers considered themselves entitled to union representation despite the union's lack of interest.
Don’t take my word for it. Here’s the link - take a moment to read it…. all of it.
DORSEY v. UNITED PARCEL SERVICE CO. | Leagle.com
So, you decide..... Did the founding leadership of the IPA desire an integration, and unification of all UPS pilots, or did they stand in total lockstep with UPS to halt Dorsey's integration attempt? I'll just leave it at this - no need for any more responses.
* After he (Dorsey) wrote to all Flight Qualified Supervisors about the efforts to gain union representation, the IPA informed Dorsey's group of its refusal to recognize the eligibility of Flight Qualified Supervisors.
* This is not a case in which the union is fighting to represent a group of workers over the objections of management. Instead this is an unusual case in which a sub-group of workers considered themselves entitled to union representation despite the union's lack of interest.
Don’t take my word for it. Here’s the link - take a moment to read it…. all of it.
DORSEY v. UNITED PARCEL SERVICE CO. | Leagle.com
So, you decide..... Did the founding leadership of the IPA desire an integration, and unification of all UPS pilots, or did they stand in total lockstep with UPS to halt Dorsey's integration attempt? I'll just leave it at this - no need for any more responses.
Last edited by Need4Speed; 12-17-2014 at 11:05 PM. Reason: edit typo
#65
Banned
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: On Food Stamps
Posts: 937
I appreciate the info from both sides, thank you. Its hard too imagine the thought process and mindset of the "founding fathers" in those early years, but my speculation is when the airline was in its infancy and rapidly growing they must have thought that management flying revenue flights by displacement was a good thing for the membership and didn't want integration. I think at the time they didn't really see how the company like everything else would take advantage of this through MEF and a dual seat reserve force.
I think no matter what side of the fence you sit on, we can agree that this issue needed to be fixed a long time ago and it has to be fixed moving forward! Both for the health and safety of the UPS flight operation.
I think no matter what side of the fence you sit on, we can agree that this issue needed to be fixed a long time ago and it has to be fixed moving forward! Both for the health and safety of the UPS flight operation.
#66
Many might not remember where many of the original Fleet Supervisors worked just prior to joining the company. It's relevant! You really think these people would've been good union members? You really think they were going to stand with the plaintiff? Remember, this was going to be a completely different venue because court cases do not make NMB cases, no matter what you've been told.
Adios
Adios
I really don't know, but it would place many of them on that special list. And definitely explain the IPA's desire to exclude that bunch from membership.
#67
On Reserve
Joined APC: Sep 2013
Position: MD-11 Capt
Posts: 13
Upshiring
I'm a purple airplane driver and was wondering a couple if things:
1) Where are you guys in negotiations compared to us?
2) We went back to ALPA because we couldn't fight the 800 purple gorilla. Do you think ALPA would give you more leverage? Personally I'm not an ALPA fan because of the age 65 rule, but I saw how ineffective we were as the FPA.
1) Where are you guys in negotiations compared to us?
2) We went back to ALPA because we couldn't fight the 800 purple gorilla. Do you think ALPA would give you more leverage? Personally I'm not an ALPA fan because of the age 65 rule, but I saw how ineffective we were as the FPA.
#68
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: MD CA
Posts: 705
Next Fall is my Prediction on a TA or 30 day cooling off.
I feel going with the National union ALPA was a good thing. Since I don't think you guys have the Unity to have an independent union. Fred Lovers, Tiger, etc. Just the Facts. We have Unity because we work for UPS which are Total Flaming *********s. You have no idea. 180 degree Corporate Culture.
So thats why u don't have the Unity we have. From what my friends there tell me. Which is a good thing!
I feel going with the National union ALPA was a good thing. Since I don't think you guys have the Unity to have an independent union. Fred Lovers, Tiger, etc. Just the Facts. We have Unity because we work for UPS which are Total Flaming *********s. You have no idea. 180 degree Corporate Culture.
So thats why u don't have the Unity we have. From what my friends there tell me. Which is a good thing!
#69
#70
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: MD CA
Posts: 705
Your a Retard if you believe those numbers. How did you get your Private let alone an ATP?
The IPA can get released if we hold out or turn down some lame TA. Eventually it would have to happen. And if UPS wants us released, all of a sudden the NMB changes it's tune and releases us since they are UPS's and the DOT lap boy.
The IPA can get released if we hold out or turn down some lame TA. Eventually it would have to happen. And if UPS wants us released, all of a sudden the NMB changes it's tune and releases us since they are UPS's and the DOT lap boy.