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Old 01-17-2015, 03:52 PM   #1  
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Default The UPS holey scope clause (it leaks!!)

So our subcontractor has a broken airplane and they decided to subcontract that flying to someone else? NICE!!

Thought US companies (us) don't have rights to fly those legs that's why Star (danish) was brought in to do the job? So how is it that now they got ABX (USA) to do it?

Lies, Lies and more Lies...
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Old 01-17-2015, 06:11 PM   #2  
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So our subcontractor has a broken airplane and they decided to subcontract that flying to someone else? NICE!!

Thought US companies (us) don't have rights to fly those legs that's why Star (danish) was brought in to do the job? So how is it that now they got ABX (USA) to do it?

Lies, Lies and more Lies...
Well, they corrected it. ..sort of.

"According to UPS, Star is losing one of its B-767 aircraft and plans to replace it with a dry leased (aircraft only) B-767 from ATSG, the US parent holding company of ABX Air. Due to a delay in transitioning the leased aircraft onto Star’s European operating certificate, Star decided to seek temporary authority from the Danish government to wet lease (plane and aircrew) a B-767 airframe from ATSG."

"Temporary authority was granted by the Danish Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) for ABX Air to fly the Shannon route from January 12-March 31. Sometime in March, Star plans to transition the flying from ABX pilots to its own (European Union) crews.
UPS should have communicated these events to us beforehand,” said IPA President Bob Travis. According to Travis, had UPS provided timely notice, the Association would have requested UPS to seek regulatory authority, through Star, to operate with IPA crews. Whether or not UPS would have been granted such authority is unknown."
...
"1) UPS entering into a Letter of Agreement (LOA) with the Association designed to prevent similar instances in the future, and

2) UPS displacing IPA crewmembers for an equivalent amount of time as the ABX crews are operating the route. Details will be worked through and announced once the LOA is finalized.

While we would have preferred to have had the opportunity to fly the route ourselves for the January-March time period, the Company’s agreement to displace IPA crews is appropriate and appreciated,” said Travis."
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Old 01-17-2015, 06:22 PM   #3  
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Well, they corrected it. ..sort of.

"According to UPS, Star is losing one of its B-767 aircraft and plans to replace it with a dry leased (aircraft only) B-767 from ATSG, the US parent holding company of ABX Air. Due to a delay in transitioning the leased aircraft onto Star’s European operating certificate, Star decided to seek temporary authority from the Danish government to wet lease (plane and aircrew) a B-767 airframe from ATSG."

"Temporary authority was granted by the Danish Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) for ABX Air to fly the Shannon route from January 12-March 31. Sometime in March, Star plans to transition the flying from ABX pilots to its own (European Union) crews.
UPS should have communicated these events to us beforehand,” said IPA President Bob Travis. According to Travis, had UPS provided timely notice, the Association would have requested UPS to seek regulatory authority, through Star, to operate with IPA crews. Whether or not UPS would have been granted such authority is unknown."
...
"1) UPS entering into a Letter of Agreement (LOA) with the Association designed to prevent similar instances in the future, and

2) UPS displacing IPA crewmembers for an equivalent amount of time as the ABX crews are operating the route. Details will be worked through and announced once the LOA is finalized.

While we would have preferred to have had the opportunity to fly the route ourselves for the January-March time period, the Company’s agreement to displace IPA crews is appropriate and appreciated,” said Travis."
I love the statement made by our scope chair..proclaiming there was no trickery on the part of UPS. I know..another honest mistake by UPS at the detriment of the union....imagine that!!

No wonder our scope is so weak. We got a company man running that committee!
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Old 01-17-2015, 06:30 PM   #4  
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I love the statement made by our scope chair..proclaiming there was no trickery on the part of UPS. I know..another honest mistake by UPS at the detriment of the union....imagine that!!

No wonder our scope is so weak. We got a company man running that committee!
Our scope chair is a "company man"?!?!
That's quite an accusation? Do you have anything to back that up with? Have you contacted our union and voiced your concerns? You can't accuse someone of betraying our association, that's really what you're saying, without some sort of proof..

Everything I've heard about him makes me believe he's a top-notch individual and that we're lucky to have him.
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Old 01-17-2015, 08:31 PM   #5  
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UPSpilott,

The UPS subcontractor does not have a broken airplane; they have a fleet of aircraft that routinely go into heavy check, just like every other airline in the world. When this occurs the subcontractor uses a non-designated aircraft to replace the current heavy check aircraft and its route. In years past, an Airbus A300 that flew for Solinair was used to cover the heavy aircraft. The agreement between Solinair and UPS ended and Star began flying the heavy check replacement. Consequently, this heavy check replacement creates no new additional flying for our European subcontractor.

In December of 2013, Star entered into a one year lease of a 767-300 from GECAS. Star converted it to a freighter, painted it white, and used it for the heavy check replacement.

In December of 2014, just as UPS was preparing for Peak, the all white GECAS aircraft was leased to another operator putting Star in a tight spot. Again, staying in context, it was Peak everywhere leaving most subcontractors swamped and without spare aircraft.

And yes, it would have been possible for Star to ask UPS to arrange a wet lease, but that did not happen. According to UPS, they had no clue that Star had asked the Danish government for this rare authority, and yes I believe them.

Last week the EB pressed UPS to correct the wrong (crew displacements), admit the error, and enter into an agreement that will prevent this from happening again.

UPSpilott, I do not visit this site very often and have no clue who you are or under what context you reply to other posts. It seems that you may have responded out of frustration to a situation that is far more complex than anyone would like it to be.

But please try to understand that the people who are representing you are the ones who brought about a near miraculous outcome to a very difficult situation with absolutely no legal leverage. It was amazing to watch unfold, and I am relentlessly proud of this EB and our attorney.

So I say with sincerity and honesty, you have been served well. No lie.

In Solidarity,
IPA Scope Chairman
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Old 01-17-2015, 09:12 PM   #6  
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I always wondered about this. How for example FDX operated an intra euro flight to and from DUB on a purple tail (I believe they run a EIDW-EGSS-LFPG). I had assumed that brown is carrying local volume from EIDW-EINN to justify the use of Star. However, ABX, US registered airline, does not have cabotage rights within Ireland. So either Star has arranged for local volume to move another way or brown has never moved volume locally on that leg (similar to moving LEBL-LEVC or LIPZ-LIRA volume but not on a browntail).

Best I can read (rather quickly mind you) the latest EU-USA Air Transport Agreement of 30 April 2007 Article 3:
Quote:
(c) the right to perform international air transportation between points on the following routes:

(i) for airlines of the United States (hereinafter "U.S. airlines"), from points behind the United States via the United States and intermediate points to any point or points in any Member State or States and beyond; and for all‑cargo service, between any Member State and any point or points (including in any other Member States);

(ii) for airlines of the European Community and its Member States (hereinafter "Community airlines"), from points behind the Member States via the Member States and intermediate points to any point or points in the United States and beyond; for all‑cargo service, between the United States and any point or points; and, for combination services, between any point or points in the United States and any point or points in any member of the European Common Aviation Area (hereinafter the "ECAA") as of the date of signature of this Agreement; and
There may very well be some extraneous agreements and treaties involved that I am not aware (some one with more lawyers, time, and inclination should look at it), but experience says that if one airplane with a US flag on the tail can operate it, then any other can... regardless of what paint scheme is on the rest of the plane.

[small point, brown does not believe in painting the US flag on its airplanes... unlike EVERY other major(and most regional) US carriers.... makes you wonder if they're proud to be Americans?]
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Old 01-17-2015, 10:06 PM   #7  
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UPSpilott,

The UPS subcontractor does not have a broken airplane; they have a fleet of aircraft that routinely go into heavy check, just like every other airline in the world. When this occurs the subcontractor uses a non-designated aircraft to replace the current heavy check aircraft and its route. In years past, an Airbus A300 that flew for Solinair was used to cover the heavy aircraft. The agreement between Solinair and UPS ended and Star began flying the heavy check replacement. Consequently, this heavy check replacement creates no new additional flying for our European subcontractor.

In December of 2013, Star entered into a one year lease of a 767-300 from GECAS. Star converted it to a freighter, painted it white, and used it for the heavy check replacement.

In December of 2014, just as UPS was preparing for Peak, the all white GECAS aircraft was leased to another operator putting Star in a tight spot. Again, staying in context, it was Peak everywhere leaving most subcontractors swamped and without spare aircraft.

And yes, it would have been possible for Star to ask UPS to arrange a wet lease, but that did not happen. According to UPS, they had no clue that Star had asked the Danish government for this rare authority, and yes I believe them.

Last week the EB pressed UPS to correct the wrong (crew displacements), admit the error, and enter into an agreement that will prevent this from happening again.

UPSpilott, I do not visit this site very often and have no clue who you are or under what context you reply to other posts. It seems that you may have responded out of frustration to a situation that is far more complex than anyone would like it to be.

But please try to understand that the people who are representing you are the ones who brought about a near miraculous outcome to a very difficult situation with absolutely no legal leverage. It was amazing to watch unfold, and I am relentlessly proud of this EB and our attorney.

So I say with sincerity and honesty, you have been served well. No lie.

In Solidarity,
IPA Scope Chairman
Dear Scopeman,

I stopped listening to you when you proclaimed that Supply Chain Solutions is the reason we all have jobs.

Easily the most ridiculous thing ever to believe.

IPA Grunt
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Old 01-18-2015, 07:33 AM   #8  
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Dear Scopeman,

I stopped listening to you when you proclaimed that Supply Chain Solutions is the reason we all have jobs.

Easily the most ridiculous thing ever to believe.

IPA Grunt
Psst.....dude, speaking of ridiculous, your total ignorance of cabotage, freedom rights and general scope language (both at UPS and FedEx) is showing and believe you me, it's pretty ugly.

I never understood why some people insist on pointing out to the general public their ignorance or total lack of understanding of a subject, especially when debating someone who obviously has a far superior education on the matter.

Last edited by package puppy; 01-18-2015 at 07:44 AM.
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Old 01-18-2015, 07:41 AM   #9  
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UPSpilott,

I'm sorry you feel that way. Truth is frequently difficult to hear.

During the period between 2008 and 2011 SCS shipped over 80% of their NAFM (North American Freight Market) volume on Browntails. International volume was a bit lower due to less frequency of Browntail flights and bilateral restrictions. So yes, at that time SCS did a good job of keeping the Browntails full.

Your post indicates that you may have been close to a furlough here. I'm sorry if that happened to you. I too have been there; four times before UPS. Please know that many of us worked hard to prevent the furlough through the VJPP, which is a small consolation to those threatened and the 109 brothers and their families that were ultimately furloughed.

In Solidarity,
Scope Chairman
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Old 01-18-2015, 08:51 AM   #10  
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I always wondered about this. How for example FDX operated an intra euro flight to and from DUB on a purple tail (I believe they run a EIDW-EGSS-LFPG). I had assumed that brown is carrying local volume from EIDW-EINN to justify the use of Star. However, ABX, US registered airline, does not have cabotage rights within Ireland. So either Star has arranged for local volume to move another way or brown has never moved volume locally on that leg (similar to moving LEBL-LEVC or LIPZ-LIRA volume but not on a browntail).

Best I can read (rather quickly mind you) the latest EU-USA Air Transport Agreement of 30 April 2007 Article 3:


There may very well be some extraneous agreements and treaties involved that I am not aware (some one with more lawyers, time, and inclination should look at it), but experience says that if one airplane with a US flag on the tail can operate it, then any other can... regardless of what paint scheme is on the rest of the plane.

[small point, brown does not believe in painting the US flag on its airplanes... unlike EVERY other major(and most regional) US carriers.... makes you wonder if they're proud to be Americans?]
FDX operates as they do because they donít fly cabotage segments. If they did, it would be subcontracted Ė like UPS. An easy way to track this is if the first two letters of the ICAO designator are the same, then chances are the route is cabotage. You must, however, remember that cabotage is ONLY for the revenue, not the aircraft. What this means is that a foreign airline CAN fly between two cities within the same country provided it doesnít pick up volume destined for the other airport within that country.

To use your example, if UPS started the evening with volume from LEBL, flew that volume to LEVC to pick up additional volume but not drop off any volume from LEBL, then continue on to EDDK, this route would not be cabotage. In EDDK UPS would utilize the privileges of Change of Gauge Y, Change of Gauge W, 5ths or 7ths to move the volume out to the world.

Finally, cabotage is not measured by a region, like the EU. It is measured by the nations involved, but some still believe it is measured by the region. This confusion entered the dialogue when the US/EU Open Skies agreement developed ďThe Community ClauseĒ to describe and validate international route authority negotiations between the US and the EU, a true first in bilateral negotiations. Never before has a group of nations, no matter how codified they were, been allowed to negotiate State to State bilateral agreements.

Cabotage is the volume, not the plane.


You are correct about finding the reference in other locations; the answer lies in the Consolidated Memorandum of Cooperation (11/18/2005 U.S. Text), Article 9.8:

Neither Party shall require an airline of either Party providing the aircraft to hold traffic rights under this Agreement for the routes on which the aircraft [wet leases only] will be operated.

Beyond this reference you will find elsewhere in the Agreement that such agreements may be requested for a single 7 month period, with a single 7 month extension (14 months total), but this is very rare.

No clue why they donít fly the flag, but we will ask.

Hope this helps Deespatcher. You are well read.
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