MNPS 50N50W

You are ABSOLUTELY right. If it is legal, but you don’t think it is SAFE, then all you owe them is an explanation. If it is NOT LEGAL, then it is probably not safe either. Remember that most reg’s only came about after blood was spilled.
But we have the enemy from within our own ranks. They are a couple of DAY RATE(RS) that are called after the full time Pilot has turned the airplane down. These few are known to fly anything held together with speed tape and crazy glue.
Can’t believe that this guy previously the head of scheduling ( DS ) is still around offering extra cash, that some are accepting. It seems that MX gets paid to whip out the pencil, and The Pilots gets paid extra to take it the extra leg.
But soon, there will be a FAA 3 to 4 day records audit, and all those chickens will come home to roost...

Lost of License...Company will not pay...
Suspended license....Company will not pay
Did something thinking that you are helping the company. Well Captain, we didn’t tell you to do that, and you should know better. Sorry....even though you got it home for them....

So guys, as IFly said. Make the right decision. CYA. Until you are able to find greener pastures.

MNPS 50N50W

F/O will be held equally responsible, if S/he knew that the Captain was NOT LEGAL to fly.
F/O’s have to agree to an extension.
All the F/O has to say is that
“ I AM VERY TIRED, AND I AM UNSAFE TO CONTINUE” . Captain has absolutely ZERO say in that decision.

mexipilot84

It’s a shared agreement, if one isn’t fine with it then it’s no good. That’s why both pilots sign the release. If it’s fatigue then just do a DS-100 it’s supposed to cover you via the FOQA tracking. Then worst case it’s in writing if the reds ever ask. Paper trails are always nice.

TiredSoul

Yes, on paper that’s how it works.
Read to sitrep again, cabin crew who knows no better, Capt backtracked on his “principles”, sports team boarding and you’re expecting me to walk under those conditions? With a Capt now willing to roll me under the bus and hang it all on me ?
I’m not saying I was fatigued.
It was a BS extension as they knew before we started the day that we couldn’t make it.
You know the drill, plan 30 min time around and it’s all within 15 min of your max FDP.
That’s not unforeseen

mexipilot84

Yep sometimes they overzealously schedule flights not accounting for delays, the customer giving us the wrong time, wx, etc. Unfortunately no matter what airline it is lack of planning is not an emergency on my part.

Can’t schedule a trip illegally to begin with.

IFlyDaPlane

Yes, my friend, it is. That's a very sh*ty situation to be in.

So really, what I'm seeing here... the problem isn't entirely with management, is it?

You may actually have to call out captain jellyspine at some point in your career. If not now, then in the future.

There may be a way to do it that doesn't put you on the spot. Can you call the CP, the DO, or someone you think gives a shyte? I don't know. Just don't go down with the Titanic because captain oblivious has get there itis. Find a tool that takes the heat off you and puts it on the rules, the manuals, the FAA. Something. Wish I had more to offer.

Really, when our peers behave unprofessionally it is so disappointing. Just makes me hang my head and sigh.

Hang in there my friends, stay safe, and do the right thing.

TiredSoul

15 min to spare on a 4-leg day may be legal but experience should tell them that would never work.
It’s not illegal just impossible.
You know that happens every day.
At 6am you’re already questioning how this will ever work. After you’ve told them 4 times during the day they want you to sign an extension at 6pm.
That’s not unforeseen.
And you’ve got a captain who wants the next sugar run so he’ll sign.
That’s what you get when everything is “merit” based.

Cujo665

Print a few of the FAA general counsel decisions, there is one that specifically says an extension can’t be preplanned. If they knew all day it’s not an unforeseen delay.
Lay the FAA ruling on his/her lap and tell him it’s illegal and you’re not doing it. Then pack your bag and get off the plane. Yes, I’ve done exactly that back as an FO. Illegal is illegal.

These’s actually an FAA FTDT 117 ruling from my airlines DO because he was stupid enough to write in for a decision on a very slightly grey area... it really wasn’t grey unless you took tidbits from other rules, told him he was wrong and refused the repo. They lost, now it is hard and fast in writing for everybody.

Being Captain isn’t as much about hours or seniority; heck, we all know how to fly.... Being Captain is about knowing when not to.

mexipilot84

^this...... and if your assigned CA doesn’t have the cojones then you might have to do let him borrow one while you pack your bag off the plane.

TiredSoul

With all due respect Mexi but if you know it all so well why are you still at Swift? Don’t think we’ve ever met but from your posts you seem like a decent enough guy. You can get better then this.