Bgood

I think they are already proficient on that....CBA

Bgood

I could not agree with u more dead meat. Sigh smh air shuttle air shuttle air faxking shuttle.

Air shuttle: can you repeat the clearance again (x3)

Everyone else waiting: shoot me now

the apprentice

You are absolutely correct the company is already proficient at breaking the CBA and thats exactly what they need to do break it into very small pieces, put it through a shredder, and then incinerate it because the CBA is poorly written, outdated, and not scalable. You need scalability in order to grow. If you bound yourself strictly to the CBA then you are a simple monkey pushing buttons. Again think outside the box bring some value added to the table be intuitive take ownership of your idea and then become a leader and implement it. The union and CBA concept we work under in todays environment is outdated unless you want to work 5, 7 or 10 years from now under the same condition you currently work under while the remainder of the business world is outpacing growth expectations while you are still sitting in the relative same position you have been wondering why you have not been able to advance. These CBA's needed to be shorter term they need to be scalable, they need to be flexible and most importantly they need to be negotiated to be punitive in nature because with out this the company will continue to violate the terms of the agreement as they want to meet there needs.

Bgood

As much as I agree that flexibility is good, I dont agree that the company should have any excuse to violate a signed contract. Its a contract. They want more flexibility? Come to the table sooner rather than waiting till 2020. Lets get a contract with muscle that improve QOL, language, pay, health insurance etc. and make us more attractive.

Cant use a fix-a-flat kit when you have a blowout.

the apprentice

I think you might be missing my complete message all together. You have to think beyond what you are looking for. Currently we have two issues to address. The first deals under the current CBA. The CBA that was signed several year ago is already outdated and leaves no room for scalability for either the company or the pilot group. The company is playing there card. That is to knowingly break the contract as they please and deal with the consequences at a later time. Remember the CBA is not punitive in nature and all they will have to do is make you whole of such contract violation. This is called breakage. As a pilot group what is being done every time the company violates the terms of the agreement? The fact is we just curl up into the fetal position wait for our next day off and then do it all over again. If the contract violation are such a big issue then what is the union doing about it? Why are the lawyers not involved? Lets start to use the court systems to our favor after all contract law is contract law and all you need to make a contract valid is 1. an offer 2. an acceptance 3. an intention to create a legal relationship and 4. a consideration (Usually in the form of money)

Now the second thing that needs to be address is that you have to look at the business aspect. You are asking for QOL, Language, Pay, health insurance, etc etc etc. What are you bringing to the table? What do you have to offer? From the business aspect you are just an expense at the very best you could be a cost avoidance measure. The reality is that you need to generate revenue and until you are able to demonstrate that you bring revenue to the organization then you will be stuck under the current CBA which leave the avenues for interpretation and breakage open.

This is a fear based management team their professional identity is their only source of personal power, and they more than anyone else in their sphere know how fragile that power is. They don't feel whole and healthy. They don't have the self esteem to build anyone else up and make the people who work for them feel strong and capable.You can easily see how fearful people put into management positions would not only devote their lives to pleasing their superiors by becoming almost machinelike in their devotion to the structure of business the rules and punishments and obsessive measurement but also take pride and almost delight in treating their employees like dirt. The false sense of bureaucratic power conferred on them by higher level managers becomes a substitute for self esteem. Healthy people grow their muscles throughout life, but unhealthy, fearful managers get their fake self esteem by hitting the marks that other people tell them to hit.

This is part of why until the management group starts to fear the pilot group breakage will continue. Hence why I ask what do you bring to the table? what do you have to offer?

No more half measures!

Bgood

Agreed. If the company weighs that it's better to break the contract to achieve a bigger goal they'll do it. If the union was putting a lot more fire under their (the company) ass in the way that you mentioned, the company would think twice with decisions on breaking contract cuz now the repercussions are greater on the weighing scale. And to be honest, the lawyer on our union side seems weak.



What is being brought to the table is more pilots to staff the alleged 61 jets to come. We might be an expense on a balance sheet but we are also of great asset to keep the company running. From a business and market standpoint, the market is not in the company's favor - rolling back to supply and demand. At the current market for regionals, especially C5 who can't currently staff, if the company can't get pilots to fly the jets they can't increase revenue unless they open an ice cream shop on the side of North Olmsted. The market demand already demonstrates for us that they need us to increase revenue. It's an airline, until Boeing start selling pilotless planes (and people will actually fly on them) the "I am a pilot" is enough to demonstrate to the company that pilots bring revenue. If the market was the total opposite then I would agree with your insight. I mentioned QOL, language etc. because those are some of the things that will make a better environment for incumbent pilots and in return, the company will get what they want - staffing 61 jets. No one will come to a ****ty company if they(the pilot) have choices to do better. It only makes sense. Pilot community is small, pilots talk.

Train people well enough so they can leave, treat them well enough so they don't want to. -Branson


Totally agree with this. The keyword is Leadership, a word those at the top are lacking. Therefore they resort to fearmonger and deception. They want to push this family-oriented culture, yet they don't hold up their end - and I am not just talking about how they deal with crews on the line, employees at CLE is included too. The top heads hide behind curtains and let the lower heads carry out their nasty tactic, if the lower heads refuse they get replaced cuz they are "expendable". Very ****ty.

A great culture is cultivated properly when it starts from the top down.


I think I answered this up top. However, Yes when the management ass burns to charcoal they will start to fear the breakage.

Plugging it in the company's "formula":
Significant increase in cost of breakage = > their goal

Embarassing.

the apprentice

Fundamentally we are for the most part on the same page for the exception on how the function of supply and demand works. Remove yourself from the equation and look at it from a supply and demand perspective. Now I know it hurts and the truth hurts but one way or another us as pilots we are a dispensable expense to the shareholders or in our case to the ownership group we are not revenue generators no matter how you slice it or you try to justify it, that is simply how finance and economics work. The organization has whats called a ROCI model also know as a return of capital investment model. Within this model they look at the point of diminishing returns. You pay to much to pilots you start getting to many pilots you pay to little to pilots you don't get enough pilots, It a balance game the decision makers play everything else is absorbed into that cost structure. From this point two things will happen when they start looking at pilots. If the point comes where the pilot becomes to expensive then from a financial perspective the ROCI model tells you that you should not be in business. Now you also have a minimum number of airplanes that you need to operate in order for this ROCI model to work. On the other hand if you do not have enough pilots to operate your established number of assets then the ROCI model will tell you that its not worth doing this business. If the shareholders or the ownership group does not get the returns they expect from this ROCI model they will very simply take there money where they know they can generate the returns that they expect. You went on to quote Branson in your post remember he is a great entrepreneur but he is also very good at identifying a failed venture and closing it down when his ROCI models don't work out. What does the management team do as a mitigating factor they artificially control the supply and demand. Trying to glorify oneself by saying we deserve a lot more because simply there is not enough pilot supply in todays market might be a true statement but it can also be a dangerous one. Remember you will never get what you deserve in business you only get what you negotiate for and today we are living through what we negotiated for.

tacocasa

Hey guys just wondered what’s going on there? Looks like you advertise captain pay after a year but the pay scales show First year captain making more than second gear First Officer?

Also heard Whisky and expressjet are growing and getting new deals. How come you guys aren’t getting any new deals?

Also, are you getting any part of this new flying: http://newsroom.united.com/2018-01-08-United-Airlines-Announces-New-Routes-Connecting-Eight-Cities-to-Hundreds-of-Domestic-and-International-Destinations

I’m not sure iPads and electronic weight and balance stuff being posted in here really cuts it. If you aren’t growing then you are shrinking. What’s up???

Bgood

Understandable, so from my understanding the ROCI serves as a seesaw for business. Just out of curiousity, if u should take a wild guess, what would you think ROCI is telling managment at this point?

Bgood

Its how they decided to advertise the pay, a little wool over the eyes. Our LOA allows to pay 2nd year FOs 2nd year Dash 8 200 Captain pay ($54.68) and only that scale. Hence company decide to advertise it the way u saw it.

A lil caveat there too, you need to upgrade within 6 months/two offers of hitting your 1000hrs SIC, else u go back to the regular FO payscale. Of course if its been 6 months and u got no offers then it wont affect u. But most likely u'll upgrade. Guess its to keep people away from jus sitting as FOs forever with a "comfy" pay.

As for deals, I haven't heard anything here other than trying to keep up with delieveries and staffing.

Of those eight cities, 7 of them start out at hubs we are not based at/hubs we dont fly to. The Newark to rapid city, south dakota seems like it will be on bigger jets not 145s. We only got Elmira, CLE, and Wilmington NC. Not sure if I missed one or two.

Im curious, myself, to see wat mgmt cooks up after dash guys transition is complete. So I'll be asking them the same question, what's up?