Making a schedule: QOL
09-04-2018, 10:50 AM
#21
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Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 60
Going through a very similar situation with our Lear 40. 2 pilot crew, owners are great as far as 91 trips go, letting us know in advance and they are always short trips and always weekdays.
However, they use a large management company that is 135 which expects us to be on call 24/7 and balks at any and all requests for paid time off, with 0 guaranteed days off.
We have been trying to convince the owners to either change management companies or drop it all together, but the owners don't seem to care too much.
Sad thing is we both enjoy working for the owners, but the management company has us both looking for other jobs.
However, they use a large management company that is 135 which expects us to be on call 24/7 and balks at any and all requests for paid time off, with 0 guaranteed days off.
We have been trying to convince the owners to either change management companies or drop it all together, but the owners don't seem to care too much.
Sad thing is we both enjoy working for the owners, but the management company has us both looking for other jobs.
09-04-2018, 12:43 PM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Position: Baja Vermont
Posts: 5,177
As soon as the owner goes 135 and the mgt company starts running charters, it’s all over. Friends of mine fly for a big NY PE owner, very happy as to work and schedule. Then, they went to a mgt company, dark clouds gathered, but only a few charters were flown, all close friends. Still, after a year or two, they went back to private ownership, it proved cheaper. Four pilots, two techs, work 2 on, 2 off. All good, they know their schedule a year out.
GF
GF
09-05-2018, 08:24 PM
#23
Captain who?
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Position: Backseat
Posts: 47
Originally Posted by kevair464
Going through a very similar situation with our Lear 40. 2 pilot crew, owners are great as far as 91 trips go, letting us know in advance and they are always short trips and always weekdays.
However, they use a large management company that is 135 which expects us to be on call 24/7 and balks at any and all requests for paid time off, with 0 guaranteed days off.
We have been trying to convince the owners to either change management companies or drop it all together, but the owners don't seem to care too much.
Sad thing is we both enjoy working for the owners, but the management company has us both looking for other jobs.
However, they use a large management company that is 135 which expects us to be on call 24/7 and balks at any and all requests for paid time off, with 0 guaranteed days off.
We have been trying to convince the owners to either change management companies or drop it all together, but the owners don't seem to care too much.
Sad thing is we both enjoy working for the owners, but the management company has us both looking for other jobs.
We were just 135 official 2 weeks ago. They say minimal charter but we will see. So, when do I have my 13 guaranteed days off now? Did you get your defined 13 off? When no trips are on the calendar and just sitting at home?
Its not the flight hours that hurt this job. I dont mind 350-400 a year. The days on the road is what hurts. On a 9 day trip now and a 15 day trip at the end of this month. Management company doesn't see an issue with it
09-06-2018, 01:54 AM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 131
Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
billsaw,
I asked about QOL, didn’t get a definite answer as the conversation was second hand. 260-280 is pretty strong money IF it’s a 3 or 4 pilot operation with little or no chartering. At least, in my experience as a NE Chief Pilot, but times are rapidly changing. The pilots I know at private equity groups have mostly 2 weeks on and either 1 week off or 2 weeks off. One friend has had the summer off as they do an 8C check. Another has a 30 minute commute, flies, at most ten days a month for 275.
As has been said, there 10% great ones, probably 30% near-great and everything else. Gulfstream/Globals are the only deal likely to be decent, in my experience—stable owners, pre-planned schedules, no last minute calls. I did 12 years at one and had 3 last minute calls due to pilot family emergencies. They bailed me out a couple of times, so it balances out.
GF
I asked about QOL, didn’t get a definite answer as the conversation was second hand. 260-280 is pretty strong money IF it’s a 3 or 4 pilot operation with little or no chartering. At least, in my experience as a NE Chief Pilot, but times are rapidly changing. The pilots I know at private equity groups have mostly 2 weeks on and either 1 week off or 2 weeks off. One friend has had the summer off as they do an 8C check. Another has a 30 minute commute, flies, at most ten days a month for 275.
As has been said, there 10% great ones, probably 30% near-great and everything else. Gulfstream/Globals are the only deal likely to be decent, in my experience—stable owners, pre-planned schedules, no last minute calls. I did 12 years at one and had 3 last minute calls due to pilot family emergencies. They bailed me out a couple of times, so it balances out.
GF
260-280 is not good money (to me at least) on a 2 pilot aircraft or if you spend your off time on call. Many will choose the airlines and a life "they" control not their boss. Some will not. It's safe to say not enough will not.
Bottom line is if management companies and owners don't want to be faced with a real crewing issue they better get off their tails and compete hard with the airlines before they drain the pool. Once it's empty it will be real hard to refill.
That means paying top dollar, having a schedule, and not messing with pilots when they are off which is huge. It doesn't matter whether they understand this or not. They will be forced to the hard way if they don't.
Last edited by billsaw; 09-06-2018 at 02:04 AM.
09-06-2018, 02:01 AM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 131
Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
You might not have gotten his bid vacation depending on seniority, either. I actually found bidding vacation only to have it cancelled one of the worst aspects of airline flying. I agree he should have received his full vacation request. Maybe because my department was led by ex-mil guys where excepting wars leave was always granted, vacation was approved as requested 98% of the time. In rare cases, we’d negotiate a mutually acceptable deal or contract.
GF
GF
The sad part is Fookz92 is that even if you would have requested leave in March for time off in November they would have approved it only to cancel it in September because the trip popped up and they have no coverage. Same ole story.... Seen it plenty of times. The management company is gonna tell you that you can't have your vacation long before they tell the owner he can't have his.....
If your staffed properly you can figure it out. If not welcome to slavery.
09-06-2018, 11:22 AM
#26
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 60
Originally Posted by Fookz92
We are in the exact same boat here. Management company tells us the only guaranteed days off are the 14 PTO days a year. We were running with 6 pt91 dry leases for the past year. 350hours just that alone for the owner and his family.
We were just 135 official 2 weeks ago. They say minimal charter but we will see. So, when do I have my 13 guaranteed days off now? Did you get your defined 13 off? When no trips are on the calendar and just sitting at home?
Its not the flight hours that hurt this job. I dont mind 350-400 a year. The days on the road is what hurts. On a 9 day trip now and a 15 day trip at the end of this month. Management company doesn't see an issue with it
We were just 135 official 2 weeks ago. They say minimal charter but we will see. So, when do I have my 13 guaranteed days off now? Did you get your defined 13 off? When no trips are on the calendar and just sitting at home?
Its not the flight hours that hurt this job. I dont mind 350-400 a year. The days on the road is what hurts. On a 9 day trip now and a 15 day trip at the end of this month. Management company doesn't see an issue with it
09-06-2018, 02:42 PM
#27
Captain who?
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Position: Backseat
Posts: 47
Originally Posted by kevair464
We are never sure when our days off are. The 135 DO expects us on call for 14 hours EVERY day, though we are never sure when that 14 starts or ends. As far as the required days off go, the DO will go back and count any day we didn't fly as "time off" even though we were on call, which isn't technically legal per part 135
Also with the 14 hours that you dont when it starts or stops? Thats also illegal with the rolling rest. We haven't come across that yet but I have a feeling its coming.
Yes, I feel like a slave.
09-06-2018, 04:56 PM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2017
Posts: 627
Originally Posted by kevair464
We are never sure when our days off are. The 135 DO expects us on call for 14 hours EVERY day, though we are never sure when that 14 starts or ends. As far as the required days off go, the DO will go back and count any day we didn't fly as "time off" even though we were on call, which isn't technically legal per part 135
Originally Posted by Fookz92
No that isn't legal. I had that sorta company that did that a few yers ago. Since then, the FAA has made it VERY clear in the regs.
Also with the 14 hours that you dont when it starts or stops? Thats also illegal with the rolling rest. We haven't come across that yet but I have a feeling its coming.
Yes, I feel like a slave.
Also with the 14 hours that you dont when it starts or stops? Thats also illegal with the rolling rest. We haven't come across that yet but I have a feeling its coming.
Yes, I feel like a slave.
This is the best pilots market we've had in DECADES! WHY tolerate this?
Sure, maybe it'd be hard to get on with one of the "big 3" immediatly, but worse case, certainly one of the LCC's like Spirit or even JB would scoop you up in a heartbeat I'd imagine
09-06-2018, 09:26 PM
#30
Captain who?
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Position: Backseat
Posts: 47
Originally Posted by Bahamasflyer
I'm not knocking you guys personally, but WHY would anyone put up with such nonsense when the airlines are hiring like gangbusters??
This is the best pilots market we've had in DECADES! WHY tolerate this?
Sure, maybe it'd be hard to get on with one of the "big 3" immediatly, but worse case, certainly one of the LCC's like Spirit or even JB would scoop you up in a heartbeat I'd imagine
This is the best pilots market we've had in DECADES! WHY tolerate this?
Sure, maybe it'd be hard to get on with one of the "big 3" immediatly, but worse case, certainly one of the LCC's like Spirit or even JB would scoop you up in a heartbeat I'd imagine
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