Leave Major Airline for Corporate?
01-07-2008, 05:17 AM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: Corporate Captain
Posts: 164
I have been involved with corporate aviation my whole career and I cannot say enough good things about it. There are good corporate jobs, and there are bad ones. The good ones operate with a safety philosophy second to none, rigid S.O.P’s, and a culture that treats its employees as human capital, a true resource. Simply, the bad ones don’t.
A one (large) aircraft flight department funded by a private corporation with a CEO near retirement does raise a few red flags. I would find out how the chain of command will flow once the CEO retires and concentrate on the new leaders’ vision and justification for use of the corporate aircraft.
Many newer flight departments tend to have five year tenure. This closely parallels the IRS’s M.A.C.R.S. depreciation scale. In my opinion, many new flight departments get started up with a brand new airplane; once the warranty runs out, and once the full five year depreciation has been written off, the corporation decides to sell the aircraft (with a huge IRS hit for no like-kind exchange) versus paying higher maintenance costs, which will affect overall D.O.C.’s. Just something to ponder. I would personally be cautious when examining ANY corporate job that has not been established for at least five years.
On the flip side of that issue, my last job lasted eight years, and they shut down. Knee-jerk corporate politics, necessitating a whole-new post.
Good luck with your decision!
A one (large) aircraft flight department funded by a private corporation with a CEO near retirement does raise a few red flags. I would find out how the chain of command will flow once the CEO retires and concentrate on the new leaders’ vision and justification for use of the corporate aircraft.
Many newer flight departments tend to have five year tenure. This closely parallels the IRS’s M.A.C.R.S. depreciation scale. In my opinion, many new flight departments get started up with a brand new airplane; once the warranty runs out, and once the full five year depreciation has been written off, the corporation decides to sell the aircraft (with a huge IRS hit for no like-kind exchange) versus paying higher maintenance costs, which will affect overall D.O.C.’s. Just something to ponder. I would personally be cautious when examining ANY corporate job that has not been established for at least five years.
On the flip side of that issue, my last job lasted eight years, and they shut down. Knee-jerk corporate politics, necessitating a whole-new post.
Good luck with your decision!
01-26-2008, 07:39 AM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Position: 767 captain
Posts: 2,695
Originally Posted by LifeNtheFstLne
Anyone know of corporate 757's floating around? I know about a few sports teams and casinos but that's it.
01-26-2008, 11:20 PM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: 320 F.O.
Posts: 1,386
The airlines may not be what most pilots signed on for but they are still better then 95% of the corporate jobs out there. Especially if the job envolves 135 management company. I left BEX in 1999 for a "good" P91 job flying Gulfstream 2 & 3 and Westwind 2 and four years later the flight department was no longer around. After that I have had to fly mostley P135 stuff and It sucks, no pay raise in two years and they have pulled my vacation time off the week before the scheduled time off. They do nothing but screw with your head and there is no union to stand up for you. I am trying desperatley to get on with a major and most of the good corporate guys under 40 that I know are trying to get on with the majors. There are some great P91 jobs out there but there is a waiting list a mile long to get one of those jobs. Good luck with your decision.
01-28-2008, 07:48 AM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: MD11 CPT
Posts: 1,077
Originally Posted by ZapBrannigan
I dont know if this will help you, but here is a post I made on another website as I was making my decision whether to accept recall or stay where I am:
"My fellow pilots,
The November bid includes 165 recalls. With a roughly 10% recall rate anticipated, this bid should exhaust the furlough list and generate meaningful hiring for US Airways.
I have been told to expect the "take it or leave it" letter within the next two weeks, and that classdates will be scheduled in September and October.
Over the last several months I have labored over this decision. I have spent countless hours on the internet on this forum and many others. I have spent hours more on the telephone with former co-workers, other furloughees, family and friends deliberating over the decision.
5 years is a long time. Honestly I can barely remember what the job was like at US Airways. Over the last 5 years i've worked for 2 regionals before ending up at a corporate flight department. I've moved twice. Our son was born and may take his first steps any day.
I wonder whether i'm the same man I was years ago. Honestly I doubt it. When I started my first job as a Jetstream 31 first officer with Chautauqua I never imagined that I would spend the next decade working for 3 regionals, 1 lcc, 1 major only to end up flying a 7 passenger corporate jet. The airline pilot lifestyle was all I ever wanted. I remember looking at that Jetstream as though it were the finest airplane in the sky. I was proud of the aircraft, proud of the uniform, and proud of the job. I polished my shoes, wore my hat, and dreamed of the day that I would make the inevitable leap to the cockpit of a Boeing.
When that day came in 1999 and US Airways began hiring 100 pilots each month after my date of hire, I thought I had won the lottery. The job was almost everything I dreamed of. Most of my frustrations were with the association. I honestly felt as though ALPA was damaging my career far more then they were helping it. At every turn they seemed intent upon building new barriers to prevent the company from competing in the airline industry. The contract was amazing, and I appreciated everything it offered, but as I became more involved and attended ALPA meetings I realized that I completely misunderstood ALPA's mission. To me the union's motto should have been "ALPA: Job security is Job #1". But it wasn't. ALPA protected its most senior members at the expense of it's most junior. It robbed from the poor, to give to the rich.
Later, with thousands of pilots on furlough, ALPA would continue to shield it's most senior members by allowing the company to raise pay-caps, by continuing to allow the outsourcing of an armada of regional jets, by failing its most junior members.
The national union leadership could clearly see that a nationwide whipsaw was in effect couldn't they? How could they successfully represent both the US Airways pilots who had lost their jobs and the regional jet pilots who were reaping the benefit?
Over the last 5 years the airline pilot profession has changed. Compensation, lifestyle, work-rules, duty rigs, and retirement have all suffered. Narrowbody jets with as many as 95 passenger seats are flown by outsourced feeders at a fraction of the pay and benefits that such positions should command... and pilots line up for those positions. Pilots spend countless nights away from their families in pursuit of a lifestyle that no longer exists. Except for those rare few who work for FedEx or UPS, the dream is dead.
The profession does not protect experience. If US Airways were to disappear tomorrow its pilots, should they choose to continue in their profession, would start over. Just as the 1800+ furloughees were forced to find employment as commuter first officers, charter pilots, expatriots (yes, they left their COUNTRY to achieve some measure of success in exchange for their sacrifice)... so too would those who found themselves unemployed due to the destruction of the airline. Who is at fault? Managers who lack the ability to control pricing? ALPA who is incapable of putting a premium on experience and creating a national seniority list to prevent pilots from becoming handcuffed to a single operator?
I'm rambling.
So I made an extensive list of pros and cons. I carried the list with me for weeks and added to it whenever a thought came to me. I stared at that list time and time again trying to see a clear answer. Accept the recall, or abandon the dream in favor of my new life.
I emphasize how much time I put into this because I want the young pilots who read this thread to understand how much time and effort had been put into achieving that major airline position -- and that giving it up has been no easy decision.
But that is the decision I made.
I'm going to remain with the corporate flight department where I am currently employed. It is by no means perfect, but it offers me a lifestyle that could only be enjoyed by the most senior airline pilots. As I write this I sit in a hotel on one of the very rare overnights we are scheduled for. My son's photograph is the wallpaper on my laptop and I can't help but wonder what he is doing right now. Every day he does something that he has never done before and watching him discover the world is just amazing to me. I miss my wife and son after less than 24 hours away. How could I even consider commuting to sit in a Philadelphia crash-pad for days at a time missing out on all of that?
Make no mistake. This has not been easy. I've wanted to be an airline pilot for as long as I can remember. I was that kid -- the one who had no other hobbies, no other interests. I was singularly focused on that airline career.
So thank you everyone for all of the advice, the insider information, the emails and PMs, the phone calls, and the friendship you have provided to help me make this choice. I wish all of the US Airways pilots -- east and west -- the very best. There is something about that airline. Something more than airplanes, tugs, and people. It will survive and prosper in spite of itself. East and West pilots need to come together and take back ALPA.
No more meetings at high priced resorts. Hold your meetings where pilots can attend -- airport hotels at the domiciles. Spend your membership dollars as if they were your own. No more meals at 4 star restaurants. Protect your junior pilots. They are the foundation upon which the profession is being built. Defend their jobs as if they were your own...failure to do so will cause more and more pilots to "look out for #1"... The result of that practice is apparent. G0-Jets, SkyBus, Virgin America...
Good luck to all, and thank you. The experience I gained flying by your sides has made me the pilot that I am today. I will not forget the lessons learned."
"My fellow pilots,
The November bid includes 165 recalls. With a roughly 10% recall rate anticipated, this bid should exhaust the furlough list and generate meaningful hiring for US Airways.
I have been told to expect the "take it or leave it" letter within the next two weeks, and that classdates will be scheduled in September and October.
Over the last several months I have labored over this decision. I have spent countless hours on the internet on this forum and many others. I have spent hours more on the telephone with former co-workers, other furloughees, family and friends deliberating over the decision.
5 years is a long time. Honestly I can barely remember what the job was like at US Airways. Over the last 5 years i've worked for 2 regionals before ending up at a corporate flight department. I've moved twice. Our son was born and may take his first steps any day.
I wonder whether i'm the same man I was years ago. Honestly I doubt it. When I started my first job as a Jetstream 31 first officer with Chautauqua I never imagined that I would spend the next decade working for 3 regionals, 1 lcc, 1 major only to end up flying a 7 passenger corporate jet. The airline pilot lifestyle was all I ever wanted. I remember looking at that Jetstream as though it were the finest airplane in the sky. I was proud of the aircraft, proud of the uniform, and proud of the job. I polished my shoes, wore my hat, and dreamed of the day that I would make the inevitable leap to the cockpit of a Boeing.
When that day came in 1999 and US Airways began hiring 100 pilots each month after my date of hire, I thought I had won the lottery. The job was almost everything I dreamed of. Most of my frustrations were with the association. I honestly felt as though ALPA was damaging my career far more then they were helping it. At every turn they seemed intent upon building new barriers to prevent the company from competing in the airline industry. The contract was amazing, and I appreciated everything it offered, but as I became more involved and attended ALPA meetings I realized that I completely misunderstood ALPA's mission. To me the union's motto should have been "ALPA: Job security is Job #1". But it wasn't. ALPA protected its most senior members at the expense of it's most junior. It robbed from the poor, to give to the rich.
Later, with thousands of pilots on furlough, ALPA would continue to shield it's most senior members by allowing the company to raise pay-caps, by continuing to allow the outsourcing of an armada of regional jets, by failing its most junior members.
The national union leadership could clearly see that a nationwide whipsaw was in effect couldn't they? How could they successfully represent both the US Airways pilots who had lost their jobs and the regional jet pilots who were reaping the benefit?
Over the last 5 years the airline pilot profession has changed. Compensation, lifestyle, work-rules, duty rigs, and retirement have all suffered. Narrowbody jets with as many as 95 passenger seats are flown by outsourced feeders at a fraction of the pay and benefits that such positions should command... and pilots line up for those positions. Pilots spend countless nights away from their families in pursuit of a lifestyle that no longer exists. Except for those rare few who work for FedEx or UPS, the dream is dead.
The profession does not protect experience. If US Airways were to disappear tomorrow its pilots, should they choose to continue in their profession, would start over. Just as the 1800+ furloughees were forced to find employment as commuter first officers, charter pilots, expatriots (yes, they left their COUNTRY to achieve some measure of success in exchange for their sacrifice)... so too would those who found themselves unemployed due to the destruction of the airline. Who is at fault? Managers who lack the ability to control pricing? ALPA who is incapable of putting a premium on experience and creating a national seniority list to prevent pilots from becoming handcuffed to a single operator?
I'm rambling.
So I made an extensive list of pros and cons. I carried the list with me for weeks and added to it whenever a thought came to me. I stared at that list time and time again trying to see a clear answer. Accept the recall, or abandon the dream in favor of my new life.
I emphasize how much time I put into this because I want the young pilots who read this thread to understand how much time and effort had been put into achieving that major airline position -- and that giving it up has been no easy decision.
But that is the decision I made.
I'm going to remain with the corporate flight department where I am currently employed. It is by no means perfect, but it offers me a lifestyle that could only be enjoyed by the most senior airline pilots. As I write this I sit in a hotel on one of the very rare overnights we are scheduled for. My son's photograph is the wallpaper on my laptop and I can't help but wonder what he is doing right now. Every day he does something that he has never done before and watching him discover the world is just amazing to me. I miss my wife and son after less than 24 hours away. How could I even consider commuting to sit in a Philadelphia crash-pad for days at a time missing out on all of that?
Make no mistake. This has not been easy. I've wanted to be an airline pilot for as long as I can remember. I was that kid -- the one who had no other hobbies, no other interests. I was singularly focused on that airline career.
So thank you everyone for all of the advice, the insider information, the emails and PMs, the phone calls, and the friendship you have provided to help me make this choice. I wish all of the US Airways pilots -- east and west -- the very best. There is something about that airline. Something more than airplanes, tugs, and people. It will survive and prosper in spite of itself. East and West pilots need to come together and take back ALPA.
No more meetings at high priced resorts. Hold your meetings where pilots can attend -- airport hotels at the domiciles. Spend your membership dollars as if they were your own. No more meals at 4 star restaurants. Protect your junior pilots. They are the foundation upon which the profession is being built. Defend their jobs as if they were your own...failure to do so will cause more and more pilots to "look out for #1"... The result of that practice is apparent. G0-Jets, SkyBus, Virgin America...
Good luck to all, and thank you. The experience I gained flying by your sides has made me the pilot that I am today. I will not forget the lessons learned."
I am a 1990 USAir refuge myself and echo your thoughts about ALPA, particularly at USAir. I was astounded at the over the top eat-the-young there. Yes seniority is king, but in the furlough cycle then, the carnage was unbelievable and we were actually kept on the street for over eight (8) years by back room sleazy deals to benefit a tiny portion of the list. I had no interest in going back.
I went a different route, after returning to GA/corporate for awhile after my furlough. One of my students who was a CFO for a silicon valley mega-company took pity on me and did an in-depth study of the airplane (not just airline) business in general, from a purely money viewpoint. He concluded that if I "insisted" on flying for a living and staying at the same company until retirement I had two choices...UPS and Fed Ex (in that order). The profit margins, balance sheets and resiliency of their business model were unparalleled in his words. He then suggested finding that needle in the haystack, the stable, high paying long term corporate job followed by the passenger carriers. I flew for two very sleazy non-sched freight operators before landing the UPS job 12 years ago. While no job, aviation or anywhere else is 100% secure, I feel pretty good for the first time in a long time even on the cusp of a media generated recession.
A good friend of mine just junior to me at USAir is doing corporate now and loves it. His QOL is far better than it was commuting three or four times a month to PIT, PHL or CLT. He was aging like he was president of the U.S.
Once again, nice post.
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