Don't play that experience game for less pay. Whether you have 500 hrs or 10,000 hrs, your duties, tasks, and responsibilities stay the same. Fair compensation should always be the objective.

 

Think about the above.

You are looking at a job that you essentially describe as an aviation nightmare.....low pay, 5 new clueless owners, 2 pilots, you managing everything, likely work every single day, etc, etc..YET you are perfectly willing to work at the low end of the pay spectrum before the deal even begins to come together??!!!

I'm one year older than you and wouldn't touch that job even if unemployed, and would think it needs to pay (anyone willing to take it on) at LEAST 150K.

I swear...only in aviation folks!!!!!

 

Thanks, I should have been more clear in my previous post.

Lower end meaning lower end of the average numbers for that size jet, the duties required, and average estimated hours which will be flown.

I am thinking that the 5 partners are going to be reduced to 3, and the estimate for hours of useage is now 500/yr.

I am thinking, assuming that the management duties will be split between both pilots; that 65K each for the first year. He will be paying almost 18K "extra" the first year to insure us (due to our low time). I plan to include 6 scheduled days off per month and 1 week vacation (7days) first year.

What are typical "sick days" in the corporate flying? I was thinking 1.25 per month and allowing to accrue for a total of 2 years (30days) payable upon termination or non-renewal

do most companies allow for the same with vacation time?

 

500 hours per year, even done at 0.62M in a legacy 500-series Citation, is quite a bit of flying for only two full-time pilots. Also, multiple owners means a much greater chance of RONs which will kill your quality of life.

With you being the only insured PIC, you need to find contract pilots that qualify to be PIC (so you can actually have time off) and that you trust (who won't try to take your job), and the owners **need** to understand that the going rate for a qualified, competent light jet contract PIC starts at $600/day plus all expenses and very well might be higher and that they should expect to utilize that person when you or your colleague aren't available.

Splitting management duties is a good idea...but there will only be ONE primary point of contact for the owners, maintenance shops, FBOs, etc. One person who gets called when plans change, the plane breaks, trips pop up where you need to be airborne 30 minutes ago, etc. That person (you, since you're the only PIC) need to be properly compensated for having the responsibility of being the one that catches all the shiat that will inevitably roll downhill.

Sick & vacation days? Don't over-complicate it with an oddball monthly accrual. Both pilots start with 7 sick and 14 vacation days (for example) and leave it at that.

 

totally agree with boiler on this one...

You are not a major company, do not over-complicate with formulas,etc for sick leave... Just get a realistic number and leave it at that. Big companies have to come up with formulas for everything because they are always accomodating the lowest common denominator.

Vacation I would say 2 weeks is the norm... just my opinion.

500 hours/ yr is a ton for 2 pilots... My department flies 250-300 hours, and I have a list of contract guys that I can use for myself or the co-captain whenver we want/need time off (another good reason to have two PIC qualified pilots-- get a contract guy whenever you/your co-captain want time off).

Also, I wouldn't equate costs that are the "cost of doing business" (ie flight training, insurance, etc) are not costs that YOU should absorb with your salary/benefits! If they want YOU to do the job, make sure they know what the job is, and what it will take for you to do it.

When I got offered my chief pilot job at my current employer, they made an offer-- I countered and said this is what that job is worth to me... they said it was high, but I told them they would never have a problem with me or the managing of the flight department. So they paid, and I delivered. (that sound was me tooting my own horn)

The point is, stay confident, and don't let them know you are feeling a little out of place and "thrown into the fire", and get what you should for the job you are going to do!

Good luck.

 

thank you yet again for the additional insight.

I have dug my heels in and said I WILL NOT ACCEPT ANY LOWER THAN ...! It is a pain in the A$$ because all the info i receive is second hand. We are schedule to meet with the potential owner the first week of June, and this is where I will get the first hand account of the amount of flying we will be doing, how many partners etc.

When I get this information i will incorporate all these suggestions into what i feel is a reasonable offer.

 

500hrs a year is a TON.

We do 250-300 with 3 pilots and its just about right. We also do about 50 RONs a year. You need to add those up - thats where burnout occurs. Will one owner come back on a Friday night trip and the other is waiting in the hangar to go away for the weekend? guess who is going?

We work vacation out amongst ourselves and the owner does not care so long as there is coverage. I have never had a corporate job where there was less 2-3 weeks vacation to start.

You really need to account for sickness, training, medical days, etc etc. WHo is going to cover the plane while you take vacation or go to recurrent? at the low low low salary of 65K you will use contract guys at the rate of another pilot very soon!

If you will take anything out of all these posts its the need for 3+ pilots. Having been on both sides (2 vs 3+) I can tell you that it makes the job night and day, short vs long term, revolving door vs stable etc....

We started up a single owner department just 1 year ago and this was the backbone of it - STAFFING..and it has made this a fantastic job. Whenever that plane goes away with the other two pilots, you are free. You can catch up on personal stuff, check on the office, think about the future trips at an easy pace etc...everyone is on top of their game, nobody is pi$$ed off looking for other jobs, etc. We also made it clear that if flying grew past 350hrs that another pilot (4) would have to be budgeted. We ironed this out all AHEAD of time.

Setting yourself up for 500hrs, managing the entire operation, and making 65K worrying about insurance and training costs etc is borderline psychotic.

Get all your $hit straight coming into the game or you will likely never get it - think staffing and salary (READ: QOL).....and honestly, you are way off as of right now.

Again, Good Luck with it all! - starting things yourself can be a great opportunity to make a quality department.

 

I appreciate the assistance, I really need to get my friend on board so that we can approach this as a unified front.

I look forward to meeting the owner so that I can directly ask these questions and get a real idea of what his expectations are. I think with those expectations in hand, I can take the rest of the day/evening to formulate what I would be willing to work for under those set of expectations.

I have been making a list of everyones suggestions so that I can look them over once I have spoken with the owner and then come back to him with my offer.

 

I have been in your position before and have kids your age. The management of a corporate jet is almost a full time job without flying. CesCom, FMS updates, maintenance scheduling (both scheduled and unscheduled),trip planning, passenger & crew lodging and ground transportation, keeping the plane clean and stocked.
Just wanted to give another option.
You alone could manage the flight department for a monthly fee, split by the owners. All flying could be paid on a daily rate by the partner making the flight. The going rate for an independent is around $600.00 per day. If they pay for both your training you could make it $400.00.
If you could get $2000.00 month management fee and $400.00 per day you can do OK. After a year if the flying slacks off -go up on the daily rate. Also have a 3rd (independent) contract pilot available for sickness, vacation, etc.
If they do fly 500 hours per year your earnings can add up. If not you're being paid for the work you do.

 

Some great points!

I initially threw out the idea of paying a small "management" fee and then a day rate. The main partner (at the time the only partner) said no way, thought it would cost him too much.

I am really looking forward to meeting him next week. From what I have been told he is a reasonable guy and I think we can make this work so that it is equitable for both sides. I am going to sit down tomorrow with my friend (the other pilot) and we are going to get on the same page as to what we will expect, what we will ask for and what we will accept.

Thank you for the input, as I somewhat overlooked the arrangements for the passangers at the destination, since the company i currently contract for takes care of that themselves.

On the upnote, the plane we are looking at has Garmin 530/430 so no FMS....though they still must be updated lol.

thanks