Corporate pay falling behind
11-18-2017, 06:44 PM
#81
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Position: B777 CA
Posts: 736
Additionally, many pilots lose there Medical’s for 1, 5, or more years (recently flew with someone out for 14 years and is now back) and regain their Medical again. You can come back up to 65. If that happens they go back to the line with seniority fully in tact like they never left. Is that possible in the corporate world?
11-18-2017, 09:50 PM
#82
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2017
Posts: 627
Originally Posted by Boeing Aviator
Question from a Legacy airline guy. Apologize if this was already discussed. I’ve never seen this issue discussed in these type of threads before.
What Long Term Disabilty benefits are common in the corporate pilot world?
The folllwing are the current LTD benefits at the big 4 airlines.
AA
60% of average monthly compensation for last 12 months or highest calendar year of past five to a max of $8000 per month.
DAL
50% final average earnings No Cap - plus 32% 401K company contribution.
UAL
50% monthly income to a max of $8000.
SWA
66 2/3% of earnings to a max of $18,750 monthly.
All above are are paid tax free to age 65 and pay out if you can’t hold a FAA Class 1 Medical.
Also no restrictions or deductions from benefits if you work anywhere in any other job other then pilot.
At United we start negotiations early soon with a joint goal between union and management of reaching a deal by our current contract amendable date of Jan 19. I would hope we would match DAL’s if not at least reach SWA’s LTD program.
Most of us want to fly to retirement age, but unfortunately we all know a percentage of pilots Medical out. What protections do corporate pilots have in this regard?
Lastly, in the airline world (for those of us with a union & contract - most) you can’t be terminated without “just cause” with a union and contract. Without union protection it’s hire and fire at will. Unless you can prove some sort of illegal discrimination. You could legally be fired for anything other then illegal discrimination. That can be difficult standard to prove and that’s the employeees responsibility. In a union, while you can be fired it’s a very difficult standard and if you are fired your guaranteed binding arbitration in which you have a good chance of getting your job back with back pay.
Not attempting to brag just trying to bring forth important considerations (especially for young pilots that have 30 plus years of career flying ahead of them.) Maybe This doesn’t seem like an important consideration to the younger guys who really don’t think about these as much as us older guys in there 40’s, 50’s and even early 60’s.
What Long Term Disabilty benefits are common in the corporate pilot world?
The folllwing are the current LTD benefits at the big 4 airlines.
AA
60% of average monthly compensation for last 12 months or highest calendar year of past five to a max of $8000 per month.
DAL
50% final average earnings No Cap - plus 32% 401K company contribution.
UAL
50% monthly income to a max of $8000.
SWA
66 2/3% of earnings to a max of $18,750 monthly.
All above are are paid tax free to age 65 and pay out if you can’t hold a FAA Class 1 Medical.
Also no restrictions or deductions from benefits if you work anywhere in any other job other then pilot.
At United we start negotiations early soon with a joint goal between union and management of reaching a deal by our current contract amendable date of Jan 19. I would hope we would match DAL’s if not at least reach SWA’s LTD program.
Most of us want to fly to retirement age, but unfortunately we all know a percentage of pilots Medical out. What protections do corporate pilots have in this regard?
Lastly, in the airline world (for those of us with a union & contract - most) you can’t be terminated without “just cause” with a union and contract. Without union protection it’s hire and fire at will. Unless you can prove some sort of illegal discrimination. You could legally be fired for anything other then illegal discrimination. That can be difficult standard to prove and that’s the employeees responsibility. In a union, while you can be fired it’s a very difficult standard and if you are fired your guaranteed binding arbitration in which you have a good chance of getting your job back with back pay.
Not attempting to brag just trying to bring forth important considerations (especially for young pilots that have 30 plus years of career flying ahead of them.) Maybe This doesn’t seem like an important consideration to the younger guys who really don’t think about these as much as us older guys in there 40’s, 50’s and even early 60’s.
11-19-2017, 05:33 AM
#83
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Position: B777 CA
Posts: 736
One correction. It was late when I was typing all the LTD stuff last night. I have two contract comparison guides. One from my union UAL ALPA and one from AA’s APA. I made an error in SWA’s Max LTD benefit.
UAL contract compatasion shows SWA max LTD benefit at $11,500 per month and APA shows it at $12,500 per month.
UAL contract compatasion shows SWA max LTD benefit at $11,500 per month and APA shows it at $12,500 per month.
11-19-2017, 07:11 PM
#84
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Position: Baja Vermont
Posts: 5,177
It’s hard to fire an “at will” employee, depends on the state law, but it isn’t as easy as many think. Especially, if the employee is long term.
Good point on LTD, rare outside of the airlines.
I know several corporate pilots who lost their medicals, then returned to flying. Still have all the hoops medically, but can fly beyond 65.
Yes, stop beating the dead horse, getting hired at a legacy at the beginning of a “wave” like today is great and, for most, the best career. OTOH, loads of great guys have been passed over or furloughed long term at legacies and gone on to have fine careers flying a Gulfstream or Global. Maybe they have a 20-minute drive, 4 weeks vacation accrued, 200K salary and schedule and decided good enough. That describes two ex—UA furlouhees of my acquaintance, both flew for me. It’s like your trying to rationalize your own choices.
GF
Good point on LTD, rare outside of the airlines.
I know several corporate pilots who lost their medicals, then returned to flying. Still have all the hoops medically, but can fly beyond 65.
Yes, stop beating the dead horse, getting hired at a legacy at the beginning of a “wave” like today is great and, for most, the best career. OTOH, loads of great guys have been passed over or furloughed long term at legacies and gone on to have fine careers flying a Gulfstream or Global. Maybe they have a 20-minute drive, 4 weeks vacation accrued, 200K salary and schedule and decided good enough. That describes two ex—UA furlouhees of my acquaintance, both flew for me. It’s like your trying to rationalize your own choices.
GF
Last edited by galaxy flyer; 11-19-2017 at 07:27 PM.
11-20-2017, 07:29 AM
#85
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Position: B777 CA
Posts: 736
Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
That describes two ex—UA furlouhees of my acquaintance, both flew for me. It’s like your trying to rationalize your own choices.
GF
No rationslization here. Been at same airline job for 30.5 years and 13 to go. Very happy with my career and very fortunate to have great luck and a great career.
My point on the LTD references is because there really isn’t any reason larger mid to top tier corporate flight departments can’t go out and buy long term disability policies for their pilots. Not as expensive as you might think. Due to the chatastrophic nature of a career pilot losing his/her medical for 1 - 5 - 15 years or indefinitely, the insurance policy would be a huge benefit to those that lose their medical.
Maybe with the pilot shortage hitting corporate aviation this will be more leverage for pilots to attain this very important benefit.
https://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/new...963a:&st=email
12-14-2017, 06:24 PM
#86
New Hire
Joined APC: Dec 2017
Posts: 3
Originally Posted by BoilerUP
Wal-Mart's significant pay bump was a reaction to pilot attrition...because that's the one thing that tends to get the attention of the HMFICs.
12-15-2017, 12:42 PM
#87
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,268
Originally Posted by RadarPwr
Agreed. Corporate will go with a business model until the department looses a number of top performers and then try to play catch up. A proactive corporate department would be a great find. Good luck, and remember that you are a valuable asset. Don't sell yourself short. The pilot shortage is real and experienced professionals should be at a premium today and at least in the near future.
Tough for a manager to sell a pro-active raise, especially for something that's not core business, not a profit center, and doesn't have good public optics. They almost have to wait until they concrete data in hand, ie attrition.
12-15-2017, 01:48 PM
#88
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2012
Posts: 174
[QUOTE=galaxy flyer;2469126]It’s hard to fire an “at will” employee, depends on the state law, but it isn’t as easy as many think. Especially, if the employee is long term.
I could not disagree more with this post. Unfortunately I speak from first hand experience. And long term or short term means zilch. At will employee means"at will". Outside of:
1. Racial discrimination
2. Religious discrimination
3. Sexual orientation
4. Age
Rights are not as one would think or expect in this day and age. Do I speak for 50 states, no, but mostly true.
I could not disagree more with this post. Unfortunately I speak from first hand experience. And long term or short term means zilch. At will employee means"at will". Outside of:
1. Racial discrimination
2. Religious discrimination
3. Sexual orientation
4. Age
Rights are not as one would think or expect in this day and age. Do I speak for 50 states, no, but mostly true.
12-15-2017, 03:56 PM
#89
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Position: Baja Vermont
Posts: 5,177
Well, sorry to hear of your experience. I tried to fire a flight attendant with notably poor performance and H.R. stopped any discussion. I had to document several instances, create a performance improvement plan, assist in teaching/coaching, then document further instances of poor performance to sustain a termination. I was told the only leg to stand on was the employee in question was less than a year. Long-term with a good track record, really hard.
Admittedly, a large corporation in a deep blue state where DoL would fight hard to reinstate the employee. A pilot had been terminated just before I arrived, fought and got back pay for over a year’s time and vacation pay when he decided to leave. And legal fees.
I was told the new boss, don’t like my work, fire me or ask for a resignation. Kept me on my toes and boss off my back and worked for 45 years in aviation.
It was easier to terminate a Federal civil servant, which I did.
GF
Admittedly, a large corporation in a deep blue state where DoL would fight hard to reinstate the employee. A pilot had been terminated just before I arrived, fought and got back pay for over a year’s time and vacation pay when he decided to leave. And legal fees.
I was told the new boss, don’t like my work, fire me or ask for a resignation. Kept me on my toes and boss off my back and worked for 45 years in aviation.
It was easier to terminate a Federal civil servant, which I did.
GF
12-15-2017, 07:23 PM
#90
New Hire
Joined APC: Dec 2017
Posts: 3
Originally Posted by rickair7777
Tough for a manager to sell a pro-active raise, especially for something that's not core business, not a profit center, and doesn't have good public optics. They almost have to wait until they concrete data in hand, ie attrition.
Pretty good summation of what I was attempting to say about. Thanks for clarification.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
