Man-made in a Wuhan lab?
#101
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Position: A Nobody
Posts: 1,559
They cover up everything, significant or insignificant.
Believe what you want, personally I need to see some legit investigative work….
The danger of *assuming* it came from the lab….
I'd let the pros make the call yea or nay, but if it's yea I'd advocate imposing strict protocols (that the science people won't like because their QOL will suck in Antarctica or the like).
Believe what you want, personally I need to see some legit investigative work….
The danger of *assuming* it came from the lab….
I'd let the pros make the call yea or nay, but if it's yea I'd advocate imposing strict protocols (that the science people won't like because their QOL will suck in Antarctica or the like).
There’s no “assuming” of anything and as far as cover ups go, if you had paid attention you would see the USA has been just as culpable as the Chinese in the disinformation and promotion of “conspiracy” crazies, to deflect what is going on.
There are paper after paper, simulations, and more from the “Pros” on the subject for decades. Accidents happen and will continue to happen and the world will continue to be at risk.
Just one problem, there’s nothing the normal person can actually do about it. They will continue their research, supported by the Governments charged with protecting us. It won’t matter if they are liberals, conservatives, socialist, totalitarian or any other flavor you may choose, they will do the work. Like children in a candy store, they can’t resist.
#102
First this is probably the most passive and blatantly ignoring of the facts and available data posts on the subject here on the forum. It’s not about belief, it’s about what has been known for decades.
There’s no “assuming” of anything and as far as cover ups go, if you had paid attention you would see the USA has been just as culpable as the Chinese in the disinformation and promotion of “conspiracy” crazies, to deflect what is going on.
There are paper after paper, simulations, and more from the “Pros” on the subject for decades. Accidents happen and will continue to happen and the world will continue to be at risk.
Just one problem, there’s nothing the normal person can actually do about it. They will continue their research, supported by the Governments charged with protecting us. It won’t matter if they are liberals, conservatives, socialist, totalitarian or any other flavor you may choose, they will do the work. Like children in a candy store, they can’t resist.
There’s no “assuming” of anything and as far as cover ups go, if you had paid attention you would see the USA has been just as culpable as the Chinese in the disinformation and promotion of “conspiracy” crazies, to deflect what is going on.
There are paper after paper, simulations, and more from the “Pros” on the subject for decades. Accidents happen and will continue to happen and the world will continue to be at risk.
Just one problem, there’s nothing the normal person can actually do about it. They will continue their research, supported by the Governments charged with protecting us. It won’t matter if they are liberals, conservatives, socialist, totalitarian or any other flavor you may choose, they will do the work. Like children in a candy store, they can’t resist.
And like I keep saying I'm no fan of GoF research, but I'm not equipped by any means to make a definitive call either way about risk vs. benefit. That's like saying we should dismantle all of our nukes because they're dangerous... then you'd be speaking either Russian or Mandarin, and it would probably depend on what part of North America you lived in (personally I'd prefer Russian in that case).
#103
Why aren't people angrier that merely talking about this subject was actively stifled?
https://www.the-sun.com/lifestyle/te...d-19-man-made/
We ought to be able to ask questions and in turn press our government officials to do the same.
https://www.the-sun.com/lifestyle/te...d-19-man-made/
We ought to be able to ask questions and in turn press our government officials to do the same.
#104
No matter your political inclinations, this is an article worth reading.
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-origins-china
An excerpt:
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-origins-china
An excerpt:
There was a time when the Covid pandemic seemed to confirm so many of our assumptions. It cast down the people we regarded as villains. It raised up those we thought were heroes. It prospered people who could shift easily to working from home even as it problematized the lives of those Trump voters living in the old economy.
Like all plagues, Covid often felt like the hand of God on earth, scourging the people for their sins against higher learning and visibly sorting the righteous from the unmasked wicked. “Respect science,” admonished our yard signs. And lo!, Covid came and forced us to do so, elevating our scientists to the highest seats of social authority, from where they banned assembly, commerce, and all the rest.
We cast blame so innocently in those days. We scolded at will. We knew who was right and we shook our heads to behold those in the wrong playing in their swimming pools and on the beach. It made perfect sense to us that Donald Trump, a politician we despised, could not grasp the situation, that he suggested people inject bleach, and that he was personally responsible for more than one super-spreading event. Reality itself punished leaders like him who refused to bow to expertise. The prestige news media even figured out a way to blame the worst death tolls on a system of organized ignorance they called “populism.”
In reaction to the fool Trump, liberalism made a cult out of the hierarchy of credentialed achievement in general But these days the consensus doesn’t consense quite as well as it used to. Now the media is filled with disturbing stories suggesting that Covid might have come — not from “populism” at all, but from a laboratory screw-up in Wuhan, China. You can feel the moral convulsions beginning as the question sets in: What if science itself is in some way culpable for all this?
Like all plagues, Covid often felt like the hand of God on earth, scourging the people for their sins against higher learning and visibly sorting the righteous from the unmasked wicked. “Respect science,” admonished our yard signs. And lo!, Covid came and forced us to do so, elevating our scientists to the highest seats of social authority, from where they banned assembly, commerce, and all the rest.
We cast blame so innocently in those days. We scolded at will. We knew who was right and we shook our heads to behold those in the wrong playing in their swimming pools and on the beach. It made perfect sense to us that Donald Trump, a politician we despised, could not grasp the situation, that he suggested people inject bleach, and that he was personally responsible for more than one super-spreading event. Reality itself punished leaders like him who refused to bow to expertise. The prestige news media even figured out a way to blame the worst death tolls on a system of organized ignorance they called “populism.”
In reaction to the fool Trump, liberalism made a cult out of the hierarchy of credentialed achievement in general But these days the consensus doesn’t consense quite as well as it used to. Now the media is filled with disturbing stories suggesting that Covid might have come — not from “populism” at all, but from a laboratory screw-up in Wuhan, China. You can feel the moral convulsions beginning as the question sets in: What if science itself is in some way culpable for all this?
#105
Science is not to blame. It is poor equipment, improper maintenance, poor procedures, people making poor decisions, being sloppy, or violating protocol.
Like flying. In a crash it is not the concept of flying that is to blame...
Like flying. In a crash it is not the concept of flying that is to blame...
#106
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs...mlett.1c00274#
An excerpt:
viruses from bat and pangolin infected the same cell in the same organism simultaneously, a rather improbable event considering the low population density of pangolins, the dearth of CoV-infected specimens in their natural populations, and the fact that CoV RATG13 does not have significant affinity for the pangolin ACE2,(3) and therefore is unlikely to penetrate the infected pangolin cell.
Gain-of-function recombinations of coronaviruses have been ongoing in the laboratory for more than a decade.(1) As early as 2007, the group headed by Zheng-li Shi from the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) created a series of “bat-man” CoV chimeric spike proteins(1,4) to enable CoVs to jump from one species to another and model “spillover effects” that could trigger a pandemic. Shi’s goal was to turn the bat CoVs into huACE2-binding molecules, that is, to design promoters of human infection.(1,3,4)
With regard to the recent history of these gain-of-function manipulations of coronaviruses, a U.S. NIH funded $3.7 million grant was approved by Trump’s COVID-19 advisor Anthony Fauci in 2015. The gain-of-function research was outsourced to the WIV, which remains at the center of scrutiny with regard to the COVID-19 pandemic.(5)
An indicator that the NIH-funded research had gone too far arose when the tinkered CoV-RaTG13 became endowed at the spike protein with a “detonator”, that is, a cleavage site recognized and activated by the host-cell enzyme furin (Figure 1).(6) This site has not been identified in other CoVs from the same lineage. The way this cleavage site is incorporated attests to the artificial origin of SARS-CoV-2. The furin-associated cleavage site was created by incorporation of the 12-nucleotide insert TCCTCGGCGGGC coding for the PRRA amino acid sequence at the S1/S2 junction in the spike monomer. Strikingly, the two adjacent arginines are coded by two consecutive CGG codons. Only about 5% of arginines in SARS-CoV-2 or RaTG13 are coded by CGG.(3) This implies that the CGGCGG in the inset would have an estimated 0.25% probability to “naturally” occur as an encoder of the RR motif. Other suspicious aspects pertain to the way in which the encoding cassette was inserted to create the cleavage site. The insertion causes a split in the original codon for serine (TCA) in RaTG13,(3) so the TC portion becomes now part of a new codon for serine (TCT), while the terminal adenosine (A) becomes part of a codon for alanine (GCA), yielding the following sequence: TC[TCCTCGGCGGGC]A. This is very odd, clearly pointing to an artificial origin.
Gain-of-function recombinations of coronaviruses have been ongoing in the laboratory for more than a decade.(1) As early as 2007, the group headed by Zheng-li Shi from the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) created a series of “bat-man” CoV chimeric spike proteins(1,4) to enable CoVs to jump from one species to another and model “spillover effects” that could trigger a pandemic. Shi’s goal was to turn the bat CoVs into huACE2-binding molecules, that is, to design promoters of human infection.(1,3,4)
With regard to the recent history of these gain-of-function manipulations of coronaviruses, a U.S. NIH funded $3.7 million grant was approved by Trump’s COVID-19 advisor Anthony Fauci in 2015. The gain-of-function research was outsourced to the WIV, which remains at the center of scrutiny with regard to the COVID-19 pandemic.(5)
An indicator that the NIH-funded research had gone too far arose when the tinkered CoV-RaTG13 became endowed at the spike protein with a “detonator”, that is, a cleavage site recognized and activated by the host-cell enzyme furin (Figure 1).(6) This site has not been identified in other CoVs from the same lineage. The way this cleavage site is incorporated attests to the artificial origin of SARS-CoV-2. The furin-associated cleavage site was created by incorporation of the 12-nucleotide insert TCCTCGGCGGGC coding for the PRRA amino acid sequence at the S1/S2 junction in the spike monomer. Strikingly, the two adjacent arginines are coded by two consecutive CGG codons. Only about 5% of arginines in SARS-CoV-2 or RaTG13 are coded by CGG.(3) This implies that the CGGCGG in the inset would have an estimated 0.25% probability to “naturally” occur as an encoder of the RR motif. Other suspicious aspects pertain to the way in which the encoding cassette was inserted to create the cleavage site. The insertion causes a split in the original codon for serine (TCA) in RaTG13,(3) so the TC portion becomes now part of a new codon for serine (TCT), while the terminal adenosine (A) becomes part of a codon for alanine (GCA), yielding the following sequence: TC[TCCTCGGCGGGC]A. This is very odd, clearly pointing to an artificial origin.
Figure 1
Figure 1. Two gain-of-function modifications of bat CoV RaTG13 promoting transmission to humans.
#107
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,512
Man-made in a Wuhan lab?
Except in this case it is specific science that is the problem.
Flying brings about benefits that outweigh the cost.
What does covid gain of function science bring us that even remotely will ever compensate for the cost?
So yes science is to blame, as the science should not have been occurring in the first place.
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#108
Except in this case it is specific science that is the problem.
Flying brings about benefits that outweigh the cost.
What does covid gain of function science bring us that even remotely will ever compensate for the cost?
So yes science is to blame, as the science should not have been occurring in the first place.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Flying brings about benefits that outweigh the cost.
What does covid gain of function science bring us that even remotely will ever compensate for the cost?
So yes science is to blame, as the science should not have been occurring in the first place.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I can claim air that moves more rapidly across the top of an airplane wing increases pressure on top, creating a downward push. That would me being a bad scientist. The science is Bernoulli’s equation of lower pressure. The science is correct.
#109
You don't know that, maybe the PRC does. We need a legit investigation before jumping to conclusions from blogosphere "data".
#110
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2017
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 953
Wouldn't Murphy suggest that if something can happen, it will happen? There's ample evidence of scientists losing control of their frankensteins, both recently and in the past.
If GOF research at WIV is eventually implicated in COVID, it would be quite the stretch to ever again claim the risk of this kind of research is worth the reward. Can someone point me to concrete examples where gain of function research provided the knowledge necessary to beat a nasty bug?
If GOF research at WIV is eventually implicated in COVID, it would be quite the stretch to ever again claim the risk of this kind of research is worth the reward. Can someone point me to concrete examples where gain of function research provided the knowledge necessary to beat a nasty bug?
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