BoldPilot

Yes, that is more accurate. Pretty much there are good apples and bad apples in every group. I’m sure you have some bad apples at your airline. Who knows, maybe you’re one of them?

Seneca Pilot

Don't fall into a trap of arguing against a baseless claim. People acting in their best interest is generally in the best interest of the whole. Billionaires don't generally get there by ripping people off, they get there by enhancing the lives of millions or billions of people.

Rockefeller lowered the cost of oil and standardized the quality of kerosene so people's houses didn't blow up due to poor formulation. Carnegie improved the quality of steel and made it's production scaled to enable the bridges and skyscrapers to be built that we enjoy today. Ford brought the affordable car to the masses. Bezos made a marketplace where you can buy anything in the world without ever leaving your bedroom. Etc, etc, etc.

BoldPilot

Yes, it kind of is my point of good apples and bad apples. I think entrepreneurship is fantastic! It is the backbone of this country and makes it great.

But......

There are companies that view profits as more important than the greater good of society. Let’s see here...Boeing and the Max, Ford and the Pinto, Lehman Brothers and various other investment banks with the sub prime mortgage fiasco that almost caused a complete meltdown of the world financial system, and Wells Fargo opening up accounts against their customers wishes.

Government had to step in with these issues and regulate. Somebody had to stand up to these companies, because they thought they could get away with it. Government does have a purpose. Life is not a free for all with no consequences, because you have money and power.

Seneca Pilot

Every one of those examples is a self correcting system. Boeing loses the faith of its customers and has to correct the flaws. After news reports Ford corrects the safety issues with the Pinto. Lehman et. al. were forced into shaky lending practices by a government program that insisted anyone should be able to get a mortgage and own a home. Wells Fargo lost many customers and paid hefty fines after what they were doing was made public by customers not found out by regulators.

Let's get back to your premise that government programs are out for the good of the people. The ideas behind the programs might have been well intentioned but you have to understand that those administrators of those programs do not benefit in any way by actually helping the people in them improve their lot in life and get out. Those administrators will yield to basic human instincts toward self preservation and act in ways to keep and grow their sphere of influence, even if not consciously. The Federal government should only be doing the things spelled out in the constitution, nothing more. Every day to day government service was intended to be done at the most local level possible. That is where the citizens have the most power to keep control and the most good can be done with the lowest cost and the most accountability.

NE_Pilot

If the majority aims at the benefit of society, would it not be best to privatize more? Aside from the majority aiming at benefitting society, a business that provides benefits will profit and be incentivized to continue. Whereas for a bad apple to succeed in business they would still have to provide something of benefit to society otherwise they will go out of business.

Unlike in government, where there is little to no incentive to benefit society, the bad apple will not be incentivized to benefit society but rather to benefit themselves. In fact the incentives tend to be perverse, when a government agency fails they call for, and usually get, more money.

BoldPilot

Okay I won’t sit here and say that government is perfect. It’s definitely not. We do need it though until we find a better way to run a civilization. Humans throughout history have tried to find a perfect government that is more efficient to no avail. I don’t like when people try to condense America to the constitution. The constitution created this country. A country is an entity, it exists in our minds because a large group of people says it exists. Much like a corporation. Just like any entity it EVOLVES. What worked in 1776 isn’t necessarily going to work in 2020. The world changes and we need to adapt. They didn’t have airplanes and the internet in 1776. Those that don’t adapt end up like the Persian and Roman Empire.

As far as your claim that people in the government don’t benefit from these programs you’re right but an elected official in government is in a public service position and public service is just that....serving the public.

Seneca Pilot

You have much to learn about the motivations of people and the historical dangers of the inevitable creep of governments toward absolute power. The Constitution was conceived from the direct experiences and studies of the founders about the history of power and the desire of men to have it at all cost, consolidate it at a level far removed from the scrutiny of the citizens, and use it to shape public opinion and compliance.

To truly understand the brilliance behind the Constitution you have to read the federalist papers and understand the history of failed governments around the world throughout history. Any argument that we have to evolve past the Constitution doesn't consider its brilliant construction and checks and balances designed to keep us free. We live in a society where regulations have the force of law and are authored by, and enforced by bureaucrats that are not accountable nor easily removed. We are already on the path to collapse because our government is no longer accountable to us and doesn't follow it's own ruling document, The US Constitution. The currency devaluation is only a piece of the puzzle.

Understand this is not a conspiracy theory. I don't believe there are secret societies out there attempting to take over. This is just human nature and the inevitable creep of governments seeking power.

Now, what parts of the Constitution do you contend do not work today?

BoldPilot

Seneca Pilot, I feel we actually do agree with each other after reading this. You’re absolutely right! All governments fail because it is MAN who is in power and it corrupts him. I know government fails and our very government isn’t immune to this phenomenon. Like I was saying, we haven’t found a way to have a civilization without a government. Eventually the human race probably will, how long that takes is anybody’s guess. I think what you’re getting into is a philosophical problem that it isn’t government that is the problem, but MAN who’s in control. That I can agree on completely.

GateAgent007

Well said. You've reminded me of a quote:

Governing the governed is listed first, followed by the obligation "to control itself." Making sure positions of power are filled by men and women of honor and good intent for the commonwealth while also possessing the means to remove those who are not is the key to having a prosperous nation.

Neutering the government does not accomplish this, and only clears the field for more malicious forces to fill the power vacuum.

SonicFlyer

The Anti-Federalist Papers are a much better read.

And in fact the Federalists lost out on the big stuff they were pushing for at the Convention, fortunately.