MD-90 going bye-bye?
07-12-2017 | 07:20 AM
#181
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Can somebody please tell me what deifintion we are using for "deadzoner?"
Somebody called me a "deadzoner" the other day and I told them "I was not." Yeah am over 50, but If I make it to 65, with pretty conservative assumptions, I will be about where I was with the DB without having to draw down the 401k balance. If I draw down the balance to age 90, I will be way ahead.
That being said, markets crash and recessions happen which could affect the assumptions, but annunities and DB's are not immune either as we have seen at least once in our career..
Anyway, so what is the definition of a deadzoner?
Somebody called me a "deadzoner" the other day and I told them "I was not." Yeah am over 50, but If I make it to 65, with pretty conservative assumptions, I will be about where I was with the DB without having to draw down the 401k balance. If I draw down the balance to age 90, I will be way ahead.
That being said, markets crash and recessions happen which could affect the assumptions, but annunities and DB's are not immune either as we have seen at least once in our career..
Anyway, so what is the definition of a deadzoner?
07-12-2017 | 08:33 AM
#182
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From: Here and there
I talked extensively with multiple people about retirement during the last contract. The reality was that it got very little play on the contract surveys. The notion that deadzoners controlled the process is also incorrect. The reality was there are about 2500 true deadzoners out of over 12000 pilots at the time. Many deadzoners who invested well unlike me were satisfied. The market performance since 2009 has put many pilots in a good position. When you add up the MPP cash, Note cash, claim cash, PBGC pension and merger stock even a investment idiot like me is looking pretty good in retirement. I am better off than NW friends who had their plan frozen hired in my time frame.
I've heard the 8000 number from multiple deadzoners so there's an obvious huge discrepancy here. Why would one way over inflate their numbers and then admit they could have controlled their own fate? That doesn't make any sense. I'm also not saying you're wrong. Maybe these people were including anyone who lost the full value of their pensions, regardless of their final PBGC amount, in the deadzoner camp.
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07-12-2017 | 09:08 AM
#183
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From: Kickin’ Back
What I meant by "weren't serious about [retirement restoration]" was the deadzoners weren't willing to go the distance (vote no en masse until they got what they wanted). By acknowledging you didn't think a better deal could be had, you've proven my point. So, the majority of deadzoners unfortunately became reluctant "yes" voters and, therefore, are looked upon as not having taken their restoration demands "seriously."
"Restoration" takes many shapes. I get that a lot of pilots do not want to see a new DB established. "Retirement" restoration can take many forms (from retirement medical to some type of annuity) that can apply to everyone.
I think the next contract we will see a sizable push in the retirement direction.
Denny
07-12-2017 | 09:16 AM
#184
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I agree that's where we're headed now. A complete package has to benefit the entire group. Active and retiree healthcare will be my biggest items going forward.
My resentment on the subject comes from the ones who are trying to blame the new guys for their lack of a retirement. As if we somehow owed them to vote down this last contract that didn't include retirement restoration. It's so backwards it's infuriating. As I alluded to above, the newer guys have become in the eyes of some scapegoats and convenient straw men.
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07-12-2017 | 09:19 AM
#185
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From: Kickin’ Back
I am absolutely not saying good riddance to the older pilots. But the reality is that with every passing month dozens of that group retire. Given they could have controlled their fate on this topic last contract cycle, they have no one to blame other than themselves. That's why I always chuckle at those blaming the so-called 82% for TA2s passage. In reality, it should be the estimated 60% representing the deadzoner group.
I'm also tired of the newer guys of being accused of throwing the older guys under the bus. Management has to love the irony of people that weren't here during the decimation of retirements becoming the newest straw men. We weren't responsible for that so I think it's best you keep your anger pointed at management.
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I'm also tired of the newer guys of being accused of throwing the older guys under the bus. Management has to love the irony of people that weren't here during the decimation of retirements becoming the newest straw men. We weren't responsible for that so I think it's best you keep your anger pointed at management.
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Denny
07-12-2017 | 09:22 AM
#186
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From: Kickin’ Back
I agree that's where we're headed now. A complete package has to benefit the entire group. Active and retiree healthcare will be my biggest items going forward.
My resentment on the subject comes from the ones who are trying to blame the new guys for their lack of a retirement. As if we somehow owed them to vote down this last contract that didn't include retirement restoration. It's so backwards it's infuriating. As I alluded to above, the newer guys have become in the eyes of some scapegoats and convenient straw men.
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My resentment on the subject comes from the ones who are trying to blame the new guys for their lack of a retirement. As if we somehow owed them to vote down this last contract that didn't include retirement restoration. It's so backwards it's infuriating. As I alluded to above, the newer guys have become in the eyes of some scapegoats and convenient straw men.
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No matter which way one votes on a new contract, as long as they have read it and understand it, no one should take crap for the way they voted.Lack of retirement comes from what I mentioned in my previous post. Anyone who cannot see that is very short sighted.
Denny
07-12-2017 | 09:22 AM
#187
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From: Here and there
Wow. From your last paragraph YOU seem to be the angry one. I have not experienced what you claim. No you weren't responsible for the losses. Neither were the pilots that were here during that time. 9-11, SARS, bankruptcy and the bankruptcy laws were. But the pilots that were here DID suffer some serious losses that you didn't experience. Do you just want to ignore that? Sounds like it.
Denny
Denny
Ignore it? Or course not. But, it doesn't take a genius to realize all the company has to do is to say no to real restoration. Based on the last contract, whose resolve would be greatest in the long run?
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07-12-2017 | 09:31 AM
#188
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From: Kickin’ Back
I would disagree somewhat with your estimation. This last contract was all about the Benjamin's. If we, as a union, decided to make retirement (notice I'm not using the word restoration) the number one "gatekeeper" issue with pay being a lower priority, I think the company would be forced to consider it.Denny
07-12-2017 | 09:56 AM
#189
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From: window seat
OMG I can't imagine they'd even try that beyond the option of an annuity based plan in your name. And even that wouldn't generate much enthusiasm now until interest rates at least double if not triple from current rates.
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