Other way around. But keep drinking out of the "glass is half empty" glass.

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There may be some cycled in and out of the desert but the planned phaseout is from late 2020 through 2029.

Show us the pay rates then tell me I’m wrong....

Anything is possible but I think most of the 757's in storage would require expensive overhauls to remain in service.

Randomly quoting LCAs is verboten to some around here. Be careful of the wolves. They’ll getcha.

True. There are a few 320s that have been retired but there upgrading interiors on 62 of the 65 jets so maybe 3 more 320s will retire. 319s the other 320s are young enough to still be attractive to a Hollywood producer or DC politician.

There's also about 20 ERs with that same age and 35 752s as well.

Or the advanced course consisting of only 5 stages. Here we have a pupil going through all stages in record times:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYN4CllWuiM

Scoop :D

Were you a pilot on the Delta seniority list when payrates for the 757, 762, 763, and 7er were made the same rate? If you were, you’re characterization is flat out wrong. If not, then you are not qualified to even have an opinion on the subject. The rates were indeed brought up to the ER rate. I am so tired of people who were not here claiming otherwise.

Now if your argument is that the ER rate has not kept pace with other widebody rates, I might agree with you.

Denny

Yes I was here when that happened. I thought it was a mistake to match the rates. Two thoughts, the ER rate was too low to begin with and that has never been addressed. Second, getting the rate to where it should be will be hard since the category flies far more 757 time than ER time. The ER rate is only $10 more than the 739, but $36 less than the 764. Do you really think it’s an appropriate wide body rate? IMHO it’s an appropriate rate for the 757, but the ER should pay $15-20 more.

Take this lesson when contemplating pay banding.

Because that is essentially what we did.

You are 100% correct. The strange thing was we did not even ask for it. The company just showed up and offered to bumped the all the rates to the 7ER rate and the 7ER got the same General raises as other categories.

So when the company offered extra raises for the 757-200, 767-200 and 767-300 to match the ER rate we should have turned them down and refused the extra money?

Can anyone point me to the table that shows what issues pilots are allowed to have an opinion on, as a function of their hire date?

It’s somewhere in your surface tablet. ;)

The A321 can be stretched to cover the MOM segment, with the engine that Delta is now the MRO for. Neither a reissued 757 or 737 can meet takeoff certification requirements, without sacrificing fuel economy in this market, thus requiring a entirely new designed 797. I don't know if it makes financial sense for Delta to buy the 797, when these 100 options can be converted to an A321neo stretch with the volume discount. Obviously, more than just 75 Cseries are coming as well, so it's going to be all Airbii for a while.

Also, before the merger, I was working on the 787 Goldcare MRO at NWA, which Boeing screwed Delta out of. I don't think we will ever see the 787 in Delta colors for that reason.

The A321 probably can't be stretched again. It's out of both wing and landing gear. It can't even come close to a 767ER replacement which is what MOM is targeting. Airlines want a 225 seat 3 class international aircraft that can go 5500 miles and carry cargo. There is nothing in that market segment hence the rumor that 767 passenger production might resume.

I just work here but geez. You'd think a killer 1-2 combo like 757/767 that was designed 30+ yrs ago would have a compelling, newer and better version of itself available in the marketplace. Too bad that's just not the case.



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What about the 330-800 NEO, says 257 seats with 7500 nm range.

You can't get there with the current engine tech. That's why you are stuck with a further stretch of the A321, or the 767.

Give it to a Boeing engineer. They could have an A329 by 2047.

It's a bit heavy. Shrinks always have CASM issues. The 787-8 is more efficient in this size class.

It's not a very efficient airframe for 257 seats, I think they have sold like two. Nevertheless I think the 330-900 may end up the 767ER replacement for Delta.

I am not arguing about any of what you say above. As a matter of fact, if you reread my last sentence, you should have the answer to your question.

What I’m so tired of hearing is the FALSE claim that the 757, 762, and 763 were NOT brought up to the 7ER rate. Like you claimed. If you were here, you know that is patently a false claim and it detracts from any further argument you make.

If you were around for that, then you were around when 738 and 777 payrates were negotiated. If I remember correctly, we have United to thank for the rates negotiated at the time. I will agree we, as a union, have not done a good job of negotiating the 7er pay rate (among others like the M88).

Denny

We are not talking about an opinion here. We are talking about fact. So what you say above has no bearing on anything being discussed.

Edit: I should say the item being discussed is the very specific question as to whether the payrates for the 757, 763, & 763 were brought up to the 7ER rates. If you weren’t here, I get how you might not understand how it went down. Don’t blame the playa, blame the game.

Denny

Any reason LAX is not currently a 320 base?

Networking says it doesn't need to be.

Next question?

Not to get too particular, but you actually were talking about an opinion, and whether one was or wasn't "qualified to have one."

No biggie...I don't have an opinion, so worry not.

Almost. Company wanted 777 really bad, and union said $300 per hour. Company laughed, a year later we signed 777 at 300 an hour. Then UAL took that number and applied it to their 1999 contract all the way down to their 737. We in turn for contract 2k asked for UAL +1% and we got it. Contract 2000 UAL +1% was with Malone.

No, it’s not an opinion. What don’t you get? It is a fact that the payrates for the 757, 762, and 763 were raised to the payrate of the 7ER. It really is as simple as that.

Do you think when the payrates were harmonized into one that the 7ER rate was lowered? Rhetorical question. It wasn’t. Tell me, where is there a chance for an opinion here? I don’t see it.

Denny

Edit: Whoops, I did say “opinion” in my previous post. What I really meant was if you weren’t here and living thru it, you probably don’t know what happened (and probably didn’t care) in as great a depth as someone who was an active pilot on the list then.

Thanks for the reminder.

Denny

One thing I'm cursed with is the ability to remember minutiae. Actually we opened at $346/hr (when the highest hourly rate in the industry was a NWA 747-400 captain at $220/hr). We settled at $265/hr PLUS a pay raise for all other fleets.

Believe it or not there was wailing and gnashing of teeth from the usual "We've been had!" crowd.

The rest of your narrative is correct.

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I accept your apology.

Had we opened for 300 a hour we would have had a deal in days. We opened far higher and basically settled for what the company offered in week one a year later. The agreed upon rate was 250 for the 777 and 230 for the 767-400. We traded the profit sharing for a 6% raise across all fleets which brought the rate up to 265. The 737-800 had been negotiated prior to this giving us 3 fleets that comprised what UAL's CEO called the Delta dot in their negotiations.

Yep - the United guys called that the "Delta Dot" since on a pay rate graph it was all by itself way above the curve. :)

This started the successful but short lived pay rates of 2000 for UAL and DAL. Unfortunately for AMR they never quite made it there since they were in negotiations when 9-11 hit.

Scoop

And it was UAL who first "pay-banded" the 75/76 and we followed suit several months later with C2K.

Do tell. Always heard bits and pieces about this...What went down?

I just noticed on the (flimsy) artists rendering on Airbus' release that the 321NEO is in the new space-flex layout. Doors 2L/R are removed; 2 overwing exits are used and a smaller door 3L/R inserted - so technically you can have a layout that goes from 1L/R uninterrupted to 4L/R.

Can't you just see marketing do that? I know the planned layout is 197 but you'd have to assume there's a lav or 2 at 3L/R and maybe for our FA friends somewhere to put away the trash (see the 32K) in the space-flex galleys.

Actually I remember from my squadron mates that APA was offered the same Delta +1% on opening from AMR but the sticking point was that all future contract disputes would be decided via "baseball" style arbitration at which time the union said "no thanks" lets go section 6 talks, then boom went the dynamite.

No the ER rate was not lowered. But that’s not the point anymore. However we got to the current rate, ER pay is too low relative to the other widebodies.

Agreed.

Denny