Return of Pensions?
02-24-2018, 07:40 PM
#41
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Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,116
Originally Posted by Bert Sampson
Do I get to be made whole for the 5 year sacrifice I made making less than $40k in the right seat of an RJ or nah?
Didnt think so. Get a clue.
02-24-2018, 08:06 PM
#42
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Joined APC: Jun 2015
Position: 320/A
Posts: 877
Originally Posted by Bert Sampson
Or sold via scope carveouts but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, if your point is that I should have been doing that flying at the mainline (BTW I am flying the exact same routes now) then I agree.
People build time in whichever way they feel will get them to their goal the quickest. Yes, in the 2000s it was RJs. Plenty of guys hired in the late 90s who flew Saabs and Jetsreams for less than 10 years. Plenty of guys in the late 70s who went straight into a legacy job. The timing of my career is not my fault.
People build time in whichever way they feel will get them to their goal the quickest. Yes, in the 2000s it was RJs. Plenty of guys hired in the late 90s who flew Saabs and Jetsreams for less than 10 years. Plenty of guys in the late 70s who went straight into a legacy job. The timing of my career is not my fault.
02-24-2018, 10:06 PM
#43
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Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: Kickin’ Back
Posts: 6,971
Originally Posted by Ewok
The line where you say, you reap what you sow, what did you mean by that?
All,
I don't want a return of pension that can be terminated and taken away either. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt (a ratty POS). I do think there is a vehicle out there that can diversify our retirement income. It could be in the form of some kind of annuity, life insurance, retirement medical or some such vehicle.
As far as getting back what had already been earned by a lot of the more senior guys.......I'd like to think it's possible but I think it is a pipe dream. Anything that targeted guys who lost already earned benefits and doesn't benefit the whole group, is doomed to failure, IMO. Jeeze, just look at the angst that's been created with the change in nonrev priority........
Denny
02-25-2018, 06:19 AM
#44
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Joined APC: Jan 2014
Position: DAL A320 CA
Posts: 558
Originally Posted by Bert Sampson
Do I get to be made whole for the 5 year sacrifice I made making less than $40k in the right seat of an RJ or nah?
I've flown with many Captains who spent 5 years sitting sideways in a 727..or were furloughed for 5 years during Leadership 7.5..or both. I guess everyone has their "tale of woe."
Maybe the 1310 DAL post 9/11 furloughees can take up a collection for you, since you sacrificed so much flying routes they had previously flown on mainline?
Maybe you should take your claim to the RJDC. They won a lawsuit against ALPA requiring us to "meet and confer" before recovering routes flown by the 73/72/DC9 prior to 9/11. They also sued to keep mainline furloughees on the street longer so you could stay in your shiny RJ. They won $600k...I'm sure they'd give you your cut.
Or maybe you could enjoy the view from the right seat of a mainline Delta Jet in the most prosperous time any of us have ever been lucky enough to be a part of.
Finally, if anyone benefited from "selling scope for pay"..it was the RJ driver. 18 mo upgrades, expanding domiciles, non-rev privileges, 1000's of TPIC to go around..followed by the biggest mainline hiring boom ever.
Sounds like you had pretty good timing after all...CG
Last edited by CGfalconHerc; 02-25-2018 at 06:54 AM.
02-25-2018, 06:52 AM
#45
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Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,108
Originally Posted by Denny Crane
So let me get this straight..........LeineLodge, Planetrain and Lumberjack do NOT want any improvements to Retirement other than more money in your paycheck? That’s the message I’m hearing from your posts the last few pages. THAT is a pretty narrow minded view. You DO realize that our hourly payrate will NOT be that much different than our competitors regardless of what else we negotiate....don’t you? This is the reason we all want to keep profit sharing like it is... If my interpretation is wrong, WHAT kind of retirement fix/addition would you support?
Having firsthand experience with the pension termination, I understand your angst with it. Me too! But aren’t there ANY other avenues you would support? You also need to remember a little bit of history that you may or may not have lived thru as far as lost compensation (either already accrued or potential) is concerned. I’m talking about the b-scale, furlough in the early ‘90s, the first RA’s “leadership 7.5”, the screw job of contract ‘96 (by our own union reps), bankruptcy and the 46% paycut, pennies on the dollar for company match “preferred” stock in 401k(supposedly worth $70+/share) and pension termination. I could go on.....but won’t.
I understand that some of the above was completely unavoidable. But what bothers me is the loss of ALREADY accrued, deferred compensation. Especially with a company that espouses the “Rules of the Road” that Delta does..... Poof! Gone.
Sorry for the rant. Guess I’m not over it as much as I thought... I would still like to hear your solutions........or is there no solution and guys like me just have to live with it? Hint: You reap what you sow...
All that being said, personally, I will be fine but...............I would just like what I had already earned restored to me. Am I wrong to have that attitude?
Denny
Having firsthand experience with the pension termination, I understand your angst with it. Me too! But aren’t there ANY other avenues you would support? You also need to remember a little bit of history that you may or may not have lived thru as far as lost compensation (either already accrued or potential) is concerned. I’m talking about the b-scale, furlough in the early ‘90s, the first RA’s “leadership 7.5”, the screw job of contract ‘96 (by our own union reps), bankruptcy and the 46% paycut, pennies on the dollar for company match “preferred” stock in 401k(supposedly worth $70+/share) and pension termination. I could go on.....but won’t.
I understand that some of the above was completely unavoidable. But what bothers me is the loss of ALREADY accrued, deferred compensation. Especially with a company that espouses the “Rules of the Road” that Delta does..... Poof! Gone.
Sorry for the rant. Guess I’m not over it as much as I thought... I would still like to hear your solutions........or is there no solution and guys like me just have to live with it? Hint: You reap what you sow...
All that being said, personally, I will be fine but...............I would just like what I had already earned restored to me. Am I wrong to have that attitude?
Denny
02-25-2018, 07:43 AM
#48
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Joined APC: Mar 2016
Position: Here and there
Posts: 1,906
Originally Posted by gzsg
We are going to make gains in our retirement.
That’s a mighty confident statement. Do you have any inside info on what those improvements may look like that you can share?
02-25-2018, 08:04 AM
#49
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,277
Originally Posted by gzsg
We are going to make gains in our retirement. Our leaders are doing a great job. Especially our Atlanta first officers reps Jon and Derek. In the face to two of the worst reps we have ever had in Sam and Scott.
02-25-2018, 09:17 AM
#50
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Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,522
Originally Posted by Denny Crane
I don't want a return of pension that can be terminated and taken away either. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt (a ratty POS). I do think there is a vehicle out there that can diversify our retirement income. It could be in the form of some kind of annuity, life insurance, retirement medical or some such vehicle.
Any discussion must only include concepts that:
1. don't reduce or degrade existing retirement mechanisms
2. are in our name/owned by us/not touchable by BK
3. have a guaranteed return/defined min value
If it can't do those things, IMO its not worth discussing because we already have more than enough at risk ways to save and invest with the existing system. Especially if you branch off and go into individual stocks/funds/etc that either you or someone else can directly manage.
That said, I'm not optimistic we will see much if any progress that meets the criteria necessary to actually implement anything. A company owned ponzi scheme based on fantasy market returns and sea lawyer pilots indexing off of "best year" credit gorging for a short period of time for an expected lifetime of income that the company in an extremely cyclical industry is responsible for is simply something that is never going to get 50.1+% support when its widely known to be unsustainable long term. Attempting to get something like that and making it retroactive just makes us look foolish and spinning our wheels while the company lets us waste effort and negotiate with ourselves.
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