Pay Banding in C2019...
10-07-2018, 03:08 PM
#41
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,273
Originally Posted by iaflyer
One of the issues is that ALPA tied their pay wagon to increasing pay for pax count and weight of the airplane in the 1950s. Airplanes kept growing in size, so it seemed like a great way to assure constant increases in pay. However, we have past "peak airplane size" and now the best airplane for US airline seems to be a 737 for domestic and a medium widebody like a A330 or B787 for the international. Both of which are a decrease in size from the biggest airplane that used to be flown in both those type of markets, meaning a decrease in overall pay. Delta used to fly the L-1011 domestically (and it's replacement, the 767-400 was originally only domestic). Obviously, the B747 was the Northwest international airplane.
Because both the sizes have gone down, the number of wide body Capts have gone down too. Pay banding works at UPS because I suspect it was the original pay structure.
I just can't see how we would get to a paybanding setup like Small Narrow body (A220, B717 and M88) , Medium narrow body (B737/A320, B757) and Widebody B767/A330/B767-400/A350 without cries of "unfair pay raise" and "they got a high percentage raise than I did".
Because both the sizes have gone down, the number of wide body Capts have gone down too. Pay banding works at UPS because I suspect it was the original pay structure.
I just can't see how we would get to a paybanding setup like Small Narrow body (A220, B717 and M88) , Medium narrow body (B737/A320, B757) and Widebody B767/A330/B767-400/A350 without cries of "unfair pay raise" and "they got a high percentage raise than I did".
10-07-2018, 03:10 PM
#42
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Joined APC: Apr 2011
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 127
[QUOTE=iaflyer;2687714 I just can't see how we would get to a paybanding setup like Small Narrow body (A220, B717 and M88) , Medium narrow body (B737/A320, B757) and Widebody B767/A330/B767-400/A350 without cries of "unfair pay raise" and "they got a high percentage raise than I did".[/QUOTE]
I agree it’s not likely, but the answer to this is that they are “unfairly” making more already.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I agree it’s not likely, but the answer to this is that they are “unfairly” making more already.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
10-07-2018, 03:21 PM
#43
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Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,460
Originally Posted by iaflyer
I just can't see how we would get to a paybanding setup like Small Narrow body (A220, B717 and M88) , Medium narrow body (B737/A320, B757) and Widebody B767/A330/B767-400/A350 without cries of "unfair pay raise" and "they got a high percentage raise than I did".
10-07-2018, 03:59 PM
#44
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Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 152
Originally Posted by sailingfun
You would be very wrong in your cost analysis. I once had the then CEO of the airline tell me that he had no issue paying a 777 CA 500,000 a year because the airframe would support the pay. He then however added that we would demand 400,000 a year if he did that for a 737 CA and the airframe could not support that wage.
Sectors ebb and flow as far as profitability. Currently international is very strong. Watch Ed’s videos.
I always found domestic flying easier overall. Feel much better after a domestic trip than international and far fewer issues to deal with as a CA.
Sectors ebb and flow as far as profitability. Currently international is very strong. Watch Ed’s videos.
I always found domestic flying easier overall. Feel much better after a domestic trip than international and far fewer issues to deal with as a CA.
Yes the domestic market has matured and international is the growth, well via JV’s. As a company the majority of our profits, driven by our pilots, are from our domestic market.
10-07-2018, 04:17 PM
#45
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,273
[QUOTE=Catboatsailor;2687736]Omg that’s funny. The hardest part of your job is deciding if you should get mad that the FA’s hoarded all the Halibut and you got the petrified chicken they cooked two hours ago with all the other passenger meals. You’ve got three other pilots to babysit you during takeoff and landing. Look at one release, one take off and landing. You deal with no issues in the back that’s what red coats and FA’s are for. I sat there beside ya going across the pond. Widebody is cake.
Yes the domestic market has matured and international is the growth, well via JV’s. As a company the majority of our profits, driven by our pilots, are from our domestic market.[/QUOTE
The majority of Captains who have done both see it differently.
As far as revenue the domestic system is by far the largest at Delta. On a per aircraft basis however the widebodies deliver far more revenue.
Yes the domestic market has matured and international is the growth, well via JV’s. As a company the majority of our profits, driven by our pilots, are from our domestic market.[/QUOTE
The majority of Captains who have done both see it differently.
As far as revenue the domestic system is by far the largest at Delta. On a per aircraft basis however the widebodies deliver far more revenue.
10-07-2018, 04:23 PM
#46
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Joined APC: Mar 2015
Position: stake holder ir.delta.com
Posts: 10,034
Originally Posted by sailingfun
Delta’s overall fleet size has never stopped trending up and the plan according to ED is for that to continue.
10-07-2018, 05:41 PM
#47
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Joined APC: May 2015
Position: Power top
Posts: 2,959
Originally Posted by sailingfun
Delta’s overall fleet size has never stopped trending up and the plan according to ED is for that to continue.
10-07-2018, 06:24 PM
#48
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Joined APC: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,504
Originally Posted by sailingfun
You would be very wrong in your cost analysis. I once had the then CEO of the airline tell me that he had no issue paying a 777 CA 500,000 a year because the airframe would support the pay. He then however added that we would demand 400,000 a year if he did that for a 737 CA and the airframe could not support that wage.
Sectors ebb and flow as far as profitability. Currently international is very strong. Watch Ed’s videos.
I always found domestic flying easier overall. Feel much better after a domestic trip than international and far fewer issues to deal with as a CA.
Sectors ebb and flow as far as profitability. Currently international is very strong. Watch Ed’s videos.
I always found domestic flying easier overall. Feel much better after a domestic trip than international and far fewer issues to deal with as a CA.
10-07-2018, 07:03 PM
#49
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Joined APC: Dec 2006
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 2,370
Originally Posted by Gooner
I am a proponent of pay banding as I see it as a increase of QOL for the group as it gives everyone more options for the same money.
I say this in an innocent way, because maybe there is an angle I’m not seeing. How does this reduce QOL? I’ll
I say this in an innocent way, because maybe there is an angle I’m not seeing. How does this reduce QOL? I’ll
The reduction happens when pilots who bid to the highest paying aircraft chasing pay now have many categories to chase pay AND seniority. Right now you can choose to seniority for a better schedule or chase pay as soon as you can, those chasing the highest pay let junior pilots hold better seniority on the more junior equipment. With banding you lose a lot of that, so anyone who doesn't bid based on pay rates stands to use seniority in their seat or future opportunities.
10-07-2018, 07:05 PM
#50
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Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: 7ERA
Posts: 1,216
Originally Posted by Gunfighter
I think you would find many on the opposite side as well. There are numerous 777/350 pilots who would welcome the opportunity to fly the 330/765 or even the 767-300ER for the same pay. I think it's more likely the 767-300 pilots are afraid they will get kicked to the curb if it paid the same as the 330 or especially 777 pay rates. Having been in three of the aforementioned categories, I would chose the 767-300ER trips at A350pay.
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