I don't think you understand what their or our commuter policy is. Probably would help to educate yourself.

Dude you nailed it. Mainline Pilots were very eager to give up scope prior to and during BK. Almost as eager as we were to give up 42% of our pay, 2 weeks of vacation, numerous pay overrides etc.

DALPA has made many mistakes including some on Scope it’s too bad you weren’t on property to lead us through BK. :cool:

Scoop

I would have loved to been on property then so I could take a 42% paycut and STILL be making 6 figures. Instead, we are all making $20k a year with bad benefits and minimal retirement working all but 10 days a month.

Moral of the story: yes, you had to make some sacrifices. But don't stand up on your soap box and preach to people who fought poverty wages for an additional 7-10 years that you all had it so rough or that you did what you did so I can reap the benefits now. You did it for you.

You need to back down a bit. Many of us who were on the property at that time were forced into a 100% pay cut. Many of us were forced into low paying entry level jobs to try and make ends meet.

As a new hire I was an engineer on the 727. I was in that seat for two years until I was furloughed. Engineer time doesn’t count for anything really. I found that out going to recruiting events to try and find another flying job. Guess what? I was told I wasn’t competitive because of my lack of recency. Guess who was competitive?......yep, the regional guys who were flying their butts off as the majors shrank.

This isn’t a poor me story in any way. But to use your words, you need to get off your soap box and quit preaching about how bad you had it. A lot of you regional guys had it better than a lot of us major guys at that time.

It’s not just that, Delta may have to buy off a customer on the next flight. That can be thousands of dollars, and that is the main reason for the change.

The other regionals assume the liability for that, whereas Delta fits the bill for the WO.

I don't see how any regional had it better without any power. Just look what happened to the Comair guys. (I do not agree nor defend the route they choose.) Without any power you are subject to get used and abused which is why scope should not have been given away creating the 2 class system. You show reluctance to support regionals but much more willing to take away when it benefits you.

The policies are one and the same. The Endeavor contract provides “a commuting Pilot the same ‘Unable to Commute Policy’ as that which is provided to Delta pilots”

Don’t like Endeavor having Unable to Commute? Get rid of it for mainline pilots and Endeavor pilots won’t have it either.


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I wasn't the one in need of the education. But thanks for doing the work for him.

You got my vote.

Given your handle, I’ll take that as a compliment.

Can’t we all get along? If it doesn't fit, you must acquit..

New phone, who dis


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I prefer the Chewbacca defense.

You’re on guard.


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We’re all on guard.

Leave my mom out of this.

Well please educate the rest of us. Since the supposed “Scope sale” by mainline Pilots was so atrocious you obviously never flew RJs, so what was your background?

OBTW do you think the 1300 DAL Pilots who were directly replaced by RJs were for selling Scope? You are very ignorant of what was going on back then.

Do you suppose we were eager to give up 42% of our pay? Our retirements? Vacation? Work rules? Pay overrides? Scope was never willingly sold, just as none of the above were willingly given up.

Back in the early 1990s there was no Scope, zero because the threat was not there. RJs came on the scene and Leo Mullin and Fred Reid went bonkers ordering RJs all in the name of frequency even though passengers did not like them. Then came 9-11 and Pilots at most airlines were taken to the cleaners by carpetbagging management who capitalized on the situation to gut our contracts.

RJ Pilots complaining about Scope crack me up. I get it, many had no other option so they did what had to be done. But blaming mainline Pilots for somehow not stopping RJ outsourcing is misguided. Management had BK, the courts, and the RLA in their corner. DALPA had what exactly in their corner?

Since you are now at DAL why haven’t we clawed back Scope? Why do we have JVs? Why are we losing flying to our Skyteam partners?

I can’t wait for some new hire in 10 years to blame you for all of these issues.

Scoop

Whoa there Spartacus. Maybe pop a xanex and go back and read the post I was referring to first.

I thought Cory Booker was Spartacus? Now I’m just confused :D Seriously though, Scoop is one of the least Xanex-needing posters on this site.....

But in this case, he's not. I was talking to someone about our unable to commute policy because he clearly had no idea what it entailed. Then Scoop goes all 300 on my snarky comment to the guy assuming I'm talking about scope

Dude,

I was in fact referring to your previous Scope sale comments. The reason that I quoted that particular post is that i was you would educate us the supposed Scope sale you keep referring to.

You got us dead to rights. Picture us mainline Pilots as Dick Dastardly twirling his mustache as we feverishly sold Scope. By the way what exactly were we supposed to have sold it for?

Please research this topic - maybe if you do you will not be so quick to denigrate your fellow Pilots.

Scoop

I wonder why scoop would have seen your name and thought you were referring to scope gives..

I do believe you hit a soft spot with some of your earlier posts. I’m not surprised by the reaction you received.

Commuting is a choice...why reward those who choose to commute

NYC base maybe

That argument will fall on deaf ears...if your commuting, it’s a choice. I commuted to NYC, LAX, DEN, SEA, SLC, and DTW (both flying RJs and mainline). I’ve called in honest twice in 12 years, never ever did I complain because I chose to commute. This job allows us to live where we want but commuting is part of the repercussions of that decision. That’s why they have jumpseat agreements and call in honest policies, if they are having to change status for non-revs that’s not really taking care of the problem, it’s each individual pilots choice and responsibility on how they have to get to work. Their are tools in place to help those pilots do that. But giving special treatment to a group of individuals because they CHOOSE to commute imho isn’t the right thing to do and creates divide like this thread. It’s really simple, accept responsibility for your choices in life and learn how to deal with those responsibilities. I question why decisions like this are made when there have been no issues since the regionals were instituted.

I don’t know a single airline who has a commuter policy that wouldn’t have some sort of language in their FOM that discusses if the pilot is having issues commuting repeatedly, it will become a discussion with the chief pilots office on how to better plan for that pilots commute. This to me just sounds like some kind of recruiting tactic, unless people are being that irresponsible

Try reading for comprehension. It has nothing to do with where he was... He benefitted by there being a Delta to get hired at instead of the company going Chapter 7. Ask Sailingfun how close we were to not making payroll.

Denny

I don't have much to disagree with what you said except to point out that the last contract, which was post bankruptcy, did include scope gives.

The overall impact of those gives can be left up to debate, but I do think it germane to include that they happened. The important thing is to not let it happen again and to start getting scope back. There is nothing to be gained for finger pointing otherwise.

I will say that I kind of see that as a benefit of the S3A though, it's one more reason to get the flying in house where it belongs. With no outsourced flying there is no S3A.

I was NWA mgt at the time, and yes Delta was days away from shutting down. The concessions and future merger was the only reason Wall Street provided DIP to keep it going. The Delta name survived the merger because mgt wanted the non-union culture of the other employees. At the time, I thought it was a mistake because of the loss of branding in the Pacific. That proved true.

I love how S3A priority has become such a contentious topic while Ed is over here giving your international routes away to SkyTeam partners left and right. If S3A priority has all this hatred, then how was it approved in the first place?

The EFA group did not have Delta days from shutting down however we were down to 60 to 90 days cash available. 2 1/2 years later when the merger was announced Delta was in solid financial shape.

How? Management changed it and didn’t ask for anyone’s approval.

The merger was in the works long before the day they announced it.

When I key the mic, I use the callsign Delta, not Nothwest. My paycheck is from Delta. Nothing else really matters anymore.

Of course it’s water under the bridge. It’s just interesting to look at history. Especially since another recession is on the horizon. I don’t see pilots repeating the mistakes of the past.

On the horizon? May I ask you how you know this? Some financial institutions might disagree with you.

Sure, the medical industry that accounts for a ridiculous amount of GDP, has to be dealt with by 2024.

There was the little matter of the USAir merger in between!

What good would that have done if such a large share was NRT 5th freedom flying which was just about to collapse regardless due to other factors?

Would have much rather kept the NWA wings though.

Just something to put it in perspective, 9E has about 4,000 total employees and there are what? About half a million DL retirees? How often are 9E employees really bumping them on flights? Proportionally it's probably not happening excess, here and there but you're retired take the next flight and chances are there won't be any 9E people listed.

But 9E being wholly owned, everything they do is for and contributes to DL and all your profit sharing. It's very clearly different from the other contract regionals and Virgin. Also as a pilot I know it can be hard for us to remember there are things that go on in a company that don't involve flying and there are other employees who are equally as important that aren't pilots. Many many 9E corporate employees work side by side every day with DL employees doing work directly for Delta and with Delta.

This is a very accurate perception of our role supporting Delta. Considering our direct support of Delta and its employees as a wholly-owned subsidiary, I'm surprised by the lack of support of working 9E crews from some Delta folks here. Our relationship is not even close to the same as other DC carriers.

Does anyone know what DALPA, or other mainline unions, are doing to bring their flying back in house? I'd be curious to know what Delta pilots would be willing to trade to take their flying back. Of course this is probably not the place to discuss, but all this talk of "hold the line on scope" and "take flying back in house" hasn't been backed by any action as long as I've been around. If no action is being taken in this environment, it probably never will.