freightguy

I have always been an ALPA supporter. But I think you got a point....looks like we are slowly getting closer to an in-house union.

DAL4EVER

I would like to comment on a couple of points. I agree with previous posters that we're having poignant, lucid discussions on this forum. Bravo to everyone who can actually type a well written argument. Other forums aren't so lucky.

Alpha - as far as senior pilots shouldering the majority of the paycuts, et al, I beg to differ. The furloughees who lost $750k from 2001-2006 lost the most. I understand that there those who say "its just business", but they were taking 100% paycuts while the rank and file enjoyed the best wages in airline history prior to LOA 46. Not detracting from what you've given up, I think its abhorrent that the Captains I fly with on the 75/76 are making less than 4th year FOs under C2K.

From a business case, the RJs should be dying. I never knew why they weren't dying five years ago. The cheapest CRJ operator in the country back then was Pinnacle whose CASM was around 12.5 cents. Comair and ASA were around 18 cents per seat mile. Given that DAL historically took in around 10 cents per seat mile we lost money on every flight. Granted, we are told that we don't actually lose money because these people connect to a larger mainline aircraft where we do make money. But the fact is, we signed ridiculous 10 year agreements and in some cases 15 year agreements with these companies and now we seem stuck with a money losing, brand losing product.

Where the junior guys, me included, are concerned is two fold. We have witnessed the connection carriers make up the bulk of our domestic flying. The combined DAL/NWA group in 2001 would have been over 17,000 pilots. Today we are just over 12,000. Those positions went somewhere. As I've previously stated, we were definitely inefficient back then with staffing, but we weren't 30% inefficient as a workforce. At a time when we could again be looking at furloughs we are concerned at the lack of anything coming from DALPA leadership. I agree with others, with the exception of Scope, I think Lee, et al, have done a great job the past few years. However, I go to the LEC meetings. When Scope concerns are brought up by various people, they are quickly squashed by the leadership. There are condescending remarks made to those asking questions. I feel on APC we actually have a more constructive dialogue than at these meetings.

I have voiced my concern to the leadership. I understand their rationale but here is mine. I was furloughed from '01-'06. I watched the connection carriers explode on routes that should have been and were, mainline flying. The guys I fly with on the 757/767 are living a career none of us will know. You did preside over the best contract in ALPA history. When that was dismantled, you also presided over a huge wave of retirements. I routinely fly with pilots who were hired '90-'91. They are 75/76 Captains now. The bottom 4000 guys are looking at indefinite career stagnation because of the branded flying. The thought of being a Captain to me in 10 years seems almost illogical. The thought of doing that in a widebody is a joke.

That's the concern for us. The positions are there but we seem almost apathetic to the cause. Pay, workrules, etc., mean nothing to me if I'm laid off. Skyteam is going to flex its muscle I believe over the next 5-10 years to its labor groups. If we don't hold the line at our connection flying, why would we ever think we could hold the line if deep into contract talks in 4 years, DAL mgt. starts sending our international flying to AF/KLM? Negotiation and enforcement is the only way to prevent this.

FlyingViking

I am ready when you, ACL / Carl / more is ready. It is about time ! We have waaay to many good guys to not do this and do it well. Send me a PM when you're ready and let's get started. The general opinion about ALPA should make this a possibility, as well as a possibility to enhance the life of every Delta Crew member (34.000 in all), and make Delta a better company as well.

Carl Spackler

Very funny, clever, and sad...

Carl

Denny Crane

dal4ever,

I don't think you want to go down the road of who lost more money in the last 10 years. I wish he furlough had never happened, but it did and I supported every inititive to help them while on furlough. It was just the right thing to do. But for you to blanketly say they lost the most just because they lost 100% of there income is, I believe, incorrect. Just with the loss of the pension, the senior guy lost ALREADY earned compensation in excess of the the total you say the furloughees lost. You throw on top of that the loss of pay and I think you can see why I'm questioning you.

There are those that will say the claim and the note made up for all of that, well I say HORSE HOCKEY!!!! It didn't even come close!!! Why do you think we are called DEADZONERS......we lost what we had and we don't have enough time to make it up.!!!!!

I really don't want to get into an argument of who lost more, this whole thing is behind us now. Bud after reading the last few pages I feel like the senior guy is being blamed for the junior guys woes. All of us, junior and senior, have taken our lumps the last few years.

We need to move forward as a unified group to not only protect and improve our scope clause but every other section of our contract too.

Denny

DAL4EVER

Denny,

You are right. I am not trying to start a "who lost more". I was taking issue with Alfa's assertion. My heart goes out to every pilot, especially the senior pilots who lost their pension and now have to rely on the vagaries of the stock market to try and recoup their pensions.

I am not blaming any senior pilot about the junior guys woes. I was trying to explain where we are coming from with our concern on enforcing and protecting our scope. Sadly, there are a good lot of Captains that while they hate the RJs rise, don't quite understand the Scope issues affecting every last one of us. I feel that DALPA should be doing a better job, educating every pilot, on the importance of scope. I don't find much information from them explaining any side of scope, so sadly, it must be done here.

KC10 FATboy

Does anyone have an update as to the number of early retirements?

Denny Crane

dal,

Thanks for listening to my rant! I don't do it very often. I can agree with everything you said. Scope is definately an issue that affects us all whether junior or senior and hopefully will be addressed in the next contract or sooner.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to say you were blaming the senior guys, it was just a feeling I got from reading the last few pages.

All is better in my own little world now!!!

Denny

DAL4EVER

Denny,

Check your PM. Off to study for recurrent. We need a place to rant, its one of the last few places where a man can mostly get by being a man without the PC police.

Denny Crane

DAL,

Check your PM. Good luck in recurrent! I'll be there next month.

Denny