No, the stupid part is you believing that you live in a vacuum. I notice that in your spin machine you left out this text:

The only reason that staffing was addressed at all was the series of lies that were perpetrated by people, many on this webboard, that were trying to down this TA. How do you and Nu Guy respond to that spin? Well, there is no response. You don't think critically, you are just spring loaded to believe whatever crap is put in front of you by someone that matches your agenda. It is really comical that you don't even give a second glance at outright lies but started whining when the true facts are laid out in front of you. Those guys were spinning, we were presenting the facts.

What part of that staffing argument is spin? Please specifically show the part that was spin. We laid out the aircraft delivery schedules, we laid out the staffing assumptions, we went through a detailed analysis of the retirement assumptions. Anyone with a brain could either accept that analysis or conduct their own given the facts that were presented. It was only after a concerted effort was made to deliberately mislead our pilots that this staffing piece was produced. Is that spin or is that trying to present facts? The problem is you don't want facts, you want emotion to match your agenda.

What is happening in Europe right now? It is in a recession. Yes, the economy is contracting and not by a little. Spain has unemployment above 20%, that is depression level. It is impacting the world economy including China and India. And you call that a scapegoat? Are you so unaware that you don't understand that world business investment drives our entire company? Without the people flying on high fare tickets, this airline would not survive. If you don't have that traffic, you must either contract flying or lose money. It is not that complicated. Or maybe you think it would be better if we went back to unrestrained growth followed by bankruptcy? That worked out so well last time.

So, if hiring doesn't begin in December of this year, it will be July or August of next year. Is seven or eight months such a long time in your world? Seriously, you and Nu Guy are like bratty little children that lash out whenever you don't get your way. Read the entire document and then come back with something that is not based on actual facts and analysis. We specifically mentioned that this was based on flat capacity. What if capacity is down 1 or 2% next year? Well, there is your 7 or 8 months. Do you not have any forward vision or are you just vapor locked into what happens in the next three months?

In that touch and go, what is the difference projected in staffing for this year with and without the TA? 1 person, yes 1. By the end of 2013, the difference was 180 or about 1.5% of the pilot group. So are you saying that that one pilot that one measly pilot is the eight month difference between hiring and not hiring? Is that it, that some pilot looked at that document and said, "Wow, one more pilot needed for this year, yes that pushes me over the edge now I vote yes." What is the spin, is it the touch and go or your selective reading and quoting of the document to match your predefined agenda? Sorry, you are the spin doctors here.

Seriously, listen to you two bleat away on here is just funny. You should be embarrassed. You talk about how to reform the union yet you are unable or unwilling to do even the most basic research about your industry and what affects it. Open your eyes gents and take a look around the world. Quit staring at your belly button, you are not the center of the world.

 

Sailing, you are so right. I remember when SD's memo came out about the likelihood of hiring in the 4th qtr this year if we passed the TA and how you proclaimed just as loudly back then there was no way... errrrrr... ummm...wait, was that you?

 

"Dear, should I book our vacation flights on Delta or United?"

Reply 1:
"United. If we go with Delta we might wind up on one of those old 717s"

Reply 2:
"Whichever one is cheaper"

If they think Reply 1 will ever happen, they are fools.

 

Exactly. Turkish air offers a great economy comfort class that can rivals our outdated world biz class in the 767. Once they close this route, those DL customers may never return.

Funny how we cut out IST and at the same time United is adding Ewr- IST? I guess we are so good at chasing yield these days.. ahh, bean counters, gotta love'em!

 

Boomer,

It would still Reply 2 even if the question was.

"Dear, should I I book on Delta or this new Brand X that has clapped out, 40-year old DC-9s flown by recent aviation high school grads?"

And that is where aviation is in 2012.

GF

 

I don't remember if it was Sailing, Slow, Alpha, TSquare, or Lundberg.

The talking points I remember went something like...

"The TA says the economy can not be used as Force Majeure to avoid the fleets/ratios/commitments"

"Even if the economy slips, at least this TA forces Delta to shrink the Regionals too"

"They will need to hire two thousand pilots by Christmas because that's how many guys will take an early retirement, plus training will need to spool up this year for the 717s arriving next year. +717!!!"

Pretty sure that last one was Bill Lundberg's Brother, posting as Bill.

 

As a member of the base that is DIRECTLY affected by the pulldown in IST, I think I can opine as to how much I think that sucks. That being said, our route guys have done a pretty damn good job of bringing our revenue stream up to the lead in the industry in their choices of destinations. No category in our system has been more drastically affected by the decimation of the European economy than the NY 7ER.
So.. what makes UAL think they are gonna make boatloads of money going from EWR, when DAL, who had been serving that market for years, perhaps did not? UAL pulled back from their foray into Africa when they found that those markets could not support two carriers. Maybe this will be the same. Turkish flies from JFK to IST. Maybe there is room for one.. and not two. I guess my point is that there is nothing to indicate that the route people at UAL are better rocket surgeons than our guys. We will find out.

 

Alpha,

I agree with you in many regards even if you are an arrogant p#%k.

The economy has and always will drive this business. No one expected instant hiring. ALPA and the Co, created that expectation and is now backing away from it. The rub is the economy was deliberately down played while all the rosy prognostications were being made. The fact that it is now not so rosy is exactly what many were concerned with which were the lies you had to counter in the hiring T&G?

Rumor is the 717 could be delayed due to AD compliance and SWA having "difficulty" getting parts (?), which is directly tied to hiring, we are now dropping much point to point in Europe in favor of the old NWA/KLM model, which will result in less net traffic for everyone, and again delay hiring (which of course was completely dismissed during the SLI/JCBA discussion)

I have a feeling if the candid conversations about the effect of the economy had gotten as much airtime as it is now, the TA passage might have been more questionable, which is of course why it didn't.

The only lack of critical thinking I see Alpha is an institutional arrogance that thinks they are the only ones with the correct answers. I find it highly ironic you are now defending the TA with many of the same arguements made against the TA at the time. I'm used to TA's falling short, but usually not before much of it is even implemented.

Back to my belly button, and for all our sakes hoping to be proven wrong in the long run.

 

Classy post.

 

Just so you understand, I copied this from an email I received. I didn't make any of these comments nor do I put any confidence in them. It is true that our stock has gone nowhere for months. I'm sure that is frustrating for RA.