I agree, I thought we needed it to be PF & PM vs Capt/FO. The person who does the item gets to say checked.

Ferd

It doesn't matter who did/does the actual flipping of switches prior to reading the checklist. Whomever answers the checklist should be looking/confirming that the item was done. Hence the name "CHECKlist!":D

Denny

ts,

I'll just PM you. :)

I'll be glad to enlighten you. NWA had a fatal crash due to a takeoff attempt with no flaps. Then DAL had flight 1141 at DFW in 1988 - another fatal crash on takeoff due to no flaps. That's why nearly every airline (except DAL) makes this a command from the Captain.

With all the new procedures, I brief my crew this way for every takeoff: "Let's do the best we can with these new procedures guys, but first and foremost is to FLY THE AIRPLANE. Let's remember the basics first, and eventually we'll learn these new procedures."

Carl

Gents:

The flaps are checked TWICE before takeoff. We've also gotten rid of (thank you NW!) deicing without the flaps extended. That always worried me... now we're hanging the flaps anytime the jet is moving. I also like the new "shall" in regards to extending the flaps on salute. I always did it like that anyways unless on a 767 and doing a rolling second engine start. The ADP kicking in really kills the engine start process.... only takes one time to figure that one out.

Retracting it uncommanded after landing... coming from the NW mindset to DL it made me twitch a bit at first, but it declutters an unnecessary callout in a very busy time.


As far as the Before Start checklist- the DL philosophy allows the CA to call out the checklist to the FO if you so desire. It's in there, and I wish it was a bit more common for guys to utilize that option.

ACL,

I'm not sweating the small stuff. If they want me to say that system was "checked" that I didn't check, that's fine by me. I can adopt to the system.

But, I disagree with the flap philosophy and I and others will make it known. Safety is not small stuff. From what I understand our training departments have butted heads on this very issue. Until there is a change, I'll be the one briefing my FO's to announce when they are lowering the flaps and to what position.

New K Now

I understand your concern but as stated earlier there are two more checklists (Taxi, Before Takeoff) where the flaps are confirmed by both pilots to be in the proper position. How much more do we need? By the way I fully appreciate you guys are bearing the brunt of the changes but lets change things that really need it. Not just make some quadruple redundant because there were some tragic accidents in the past. Too much redundancy can cause complacency at times as well. I do tend to agree with you that there are some items that are checked by the FO and the Capt answers checked without full knowledge that the items were done (unless he asks). There is room for improvement there in my opinion. Things such as first flight of the day items, voice recorder etc on the 757/767. Most items are easily checked when the checklist item is read but there are some that are not.

One thing I do like is that the cockpit at DL(S) can be run as more of an equal situation. By that I mean there is no question who is in charge but by the time the FO transitions to the left seat he has almost all the flying related stuff before and can concentrate on what he needs to learn to be a Capt and of couse flying from the left seat (even the most confident Capts won't let me do that :).

There's nothing wrong with checking them on extension when you are still stationary, right?


South FO's know the responses to the Before Start Checklist?

One more time and I am good. :D

New K Now

NWA only added the requirement to set the flaps on command before taxi around 7-8 years ago. Before that, they could be set during taxi and checked, yes, twice.

That worked great until we had a couple more incidents where aircraft attempted to takeoff yet again with the flaps up, despite being checked TWICE. So, NWA instituted a standardized procedure where the captain ordered the flaps extended prior to taxi as a third level of safety.

In one fell swoop we have eliminated that step. Seems to me like a "lesson learned" that has just been flushed, and it is not a comfortable feeling for me personally.

I haven't flown a Phase 3 flight yet, so I don' know how I'll like the latest procedures. I don't see the new philosophy blending well with the DC-9's 4-5 leg, quick turn with airplane changes daily schedule, but we'll see.

And I'm guessing "windows closed" on the before takeoff checklist had interesting origin :D