Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
01-17-2013, 12:12 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,008
Originally Posted by Reroute
I agree that some "straight forward accounting" is in order and I suspect that will happen in February, but until then, some critical evaluation is possible and we should turn to the source documents rather than web forum banter as we examine the issues.
Delta pilot contract
Section 1. A. Recognition
"In accordance with the certification issued by the National Mediation Board in Case No. R-7191, 36 NMB No. 21, January 22, 2009, the Company recognizes the Air Line Pilots Association, International, as the duly designated and authorized representative of the Flight Deck Crewmembers in the service of the Company for the purposes of the Railway Labor Act, as amended."
The Delta pilots are in the service of Delta Air Lines for the purposes of the RLA, not the Pinnacle pilots. The Pinnacle agreement is not a part of the Delta pilot contract, nor does it supersede the Delta pilot contract.
ALPA C&BLs
Article IV Section 2
"A. The Master Executive Council shall function as a coordinating Council for the membership on that airline. Its activities shall be proportionate to and in accordance with the demands made upon it by the Local Councils. All normal or routine local Association business shall, however, be conducted by the individual Local Councils."
The Delta MEC is the coordinating Council for the membership at Delta, not at Pinnacle.
And yes, the meet and confer language is weak in the admin manual. From a strategic stand point, do we want to strengthen it? Do we want other pilot groups involved in our negotiations in the future?
Delta pilot contract
Section 1. A. Recognition
"In accordance with the certification issued by the National Mediation Board in Case No. R-7191, 36 NMB No. 21, January 22, 2009, the Company recognizes the Air Line Pilots Association, International, as the duly designated and authorized representative of the Flight Deck Crewmembers in the service of the Company for the purposes of the Railway Labor Act, as amended."
The Delta pilots are in the service of Delta Air Lines for the purposes of the RLA, not the Pinnacle pilots. The Pinnacle agreement is not a part of the Delta pilot contract, nor does it supersede the Delta pilot contract.
ALPA C&BLs
Article IV Section 2
"A. The Master Executive Council shall function as a coordinating Council for the membership on that airline. Its activities shall be proportionate to and in accordance with the demands made upon it by the Local Councils. All normal or routine local Association business shall, however, be conducted by the individual Local Councils."
The Delta MEC is the coordinating Council for the membership at Delta, not at Pinnacle.
And yes, the meet and confer language is weak in the admin manual. From a strategic stand point, do we want to strengthen it? Do we want other pilot groups involved in our negotiations in the future?
Further, the "meet and confer" language is how ALPA resolves conflicts of interest internally. Who would you rather have resolve those issues, than us?
How can we coordinate if there is no duty to tell other pilots what is being negotiated with their management? It is particularly important when the negotiations involve things which you would not want to share without the Admin Manual compelling such action.
01-17-2013, 12:50 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Originally Posted by Reroute
And yes, the meet and confer language is weak in the admin manual. From a strategic stand point, do we want to strengthen it? Do we want other pilot groups involved in our negotiations in the future?
Again, the clause has revealed itself as a farce, and so there needs to be consequences. I only see two logical courses of action: either the clause should have been followed and we need a remedy for the transgression, or the clause does not apply, and it needs to be removed.
Did I mention I don't like the meet and confer clause?
01-17-2013, 01:02 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Position: Lowest Pay I Could Find
Posts: 1,044
Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
Individual pilots aren't guaranteed to be hired but they are required to own a certain % of slots each month.
01-17-2013, 01:03 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: FO
Posts: 3,033
Originally Posted by Mesabah
Delta now plans to fire our management to streamline the airline. That's the ultimate goal here, they have us negotiating directly with DAL management without the overhead of regional management. We are soon to be Delta pilots owned by Delta, working under the 9E CBA with no associated management costs. 100% of all savings and earnings going to Delta. We will soon be way cheaper than any other regional, the others simply can't compete.
Last edited by BlueMoon; 01-17-2013 at 01:27 PM.
01-17-2013, 01:08 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: A big one that looks like a little one
Posts: 633
Originally Posted by Flamer
True, I guess they could interview them all and hire zero and still be legal? It says "(3) a commitment by Delta to hire a minimum number of Pinnacle pilots" - and then further down lists the numbers that will be hired. So they would either have to exhaust the list the first month....tough to interview that many. Or some of them will be gaurenteed employment each month until that occurs. I don't ever have a problem with preferential interviews, but am not a fan of forced hiring in any industry.
01-17-2013, 02:05 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
the more you read the more you realize that for some in the pro ALPA crowd it wasnt about putting ALPA on a pedestal, but rather Lee Moak.
01-17-2013, 02:13 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,234
Any council 20 notes?
01-17-2013, 02:19 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,919
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
the more you read the more you realize that for some in the pro ALPA crowd it wasnt about putting ALPA on a pedestal, but rather Lee Moak.
01-17-2013, 03:55 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 593
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
I would argue Pinnacle pilots are in the service of Delta. Who do believe them to be in the service of?
Further, the "meet and confer" language is how ALPA resolves conflicts of interest internally. Who would you rather have resolve those issues, than us?
How can we coordinate if there is no duty to tell other pilots what is being negotiated with their management? It is particularly important when the negotiations involve things which you would not want to share without the Admin Manual compelling such action.
Further, the "meet and confer" language is how ALPA resolves conflicts of interest internally. Who would you rather have resolve those issues, than us?
How can we coordinate if there is no duty to tell other pilots what is being negotiated with their management? It is particularly important when the negotiations involve things which you would not want to share without the Admin Manual compelling such action.
On the first one, the Pinnacle Pilots are in the service of Pinnacle, not Delta. That's the way the NMB sees it. They are no more in the service of Delta than Delta pilots are in the service of Alaska when a Delta flight has an Alaska coded pax on board.
Second, the meet and confer is language that is required when there are opening scope proposals with regards to section one. I am unaware of any changes to section 1 of the 9E CBA. The Bridge Agreement, as you have pointed out in another thread, is a separate agreement.
Even if there had been a meet and confer, there is no requirement for a consensus, the 9E pilots would still have been able to seek their own negotiating goals.
Third, you haven't made a compelling case why the admin manual meet and confer section is binding in this instance, particularly since the bridge agreement is apparently not part of section 1. Furthermore, what would be gained by invoking a meet and confer clause if there is apparently nothing in this agreement that adversely impacts the Delta pilot contract and even if nominally it did, there is nothing in the admin manual that would give the Delta pilots a veto over the Pinnacle pilots contract.
I think as a pilot group, whose scope clause does routinely impact others, that the Delta pilots may not want to be the ones who set a precedent where pilot groups get involved in each others negotiations, but that's a question for the MEC to ultimately decide.
I agree that this could have been handled better, particularly with communications, but I haven't yet seen a compelling case where this was done in a manner contrary to the RLA, the C&BLs or the AM.
01-17-2013, 04:02 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Reroute: Did you come up with that on your own or only after conferring with the lawyers (who work for ALPA National, not DALPA)?
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