Scoop, I agree with most everything you posted but I have a few questions: Do you think DALPA caused the stagnation ? Do you think the fact that we had 2000 or so pilots leave because of loss of pension/ bankruptcy and their replacements then hit age 65 stagnation and a flat economy contributed to this stagnation ? How about the merger and the synergies with subsequent loss of flying ? I would add that I think the whole seniority list has stagnated the last five years but as always the junior dudes get hit the hardest.

 

Great idea!

How about adding an inflation index to the end of the agreement as well. ie: inflation is raging at some %--we get "cost of living" increases.

My opinion here -- This all sounds great, but everyone has to realize that anything we write down in a pwa costs something, some negotiating "capital" is spent for every damn line in that book.

 

We will have 12 737-900 by the end of December 2013 and 16 more next year.

 

That is correct and is supported by the August Crew resources news letter. I understand the economics of the manning. My only real issue is that is not what was represented to us by the union and company during contract negotiations.

I would argue that a statement more like this should have been issued.

"This is a very exciting time at Delta and with the addition of the 737-900's and potential addition of 88 717's. Please keep in mind while voting for this contract that with the system wide surplus of pilots, the draw down of the 757/DC9 fleets and only 530 retirements over the next half decade these additional aircraft are not indicative of future hiring. Please read the TA and ask questions"

We would not be having most of these discussions had they issued a more realistic and truthful statement. I'm sure someone will say they did not promise to hire. I agree with that, but you have to agree they led us to believe they would have to hire to man the 717. Ultimately that is the issue that bothers most pilots. We know the first 145 crews or so are coming from surplus pilots, plus whatever crews are coming from the 9. The question is how many total crews on 717 and how many can we fund from additional displacements.

 

Originally Posted by Scoop
ALFA,

I voted yes on the last contract but it is not all peaches and cream here at DAL. Yes we had a 41% advantage in pay rates, and yet CAL 2005 hires are making more than late 90 hires at DAL because 2005 hires at CAL can hold 757 CAPT. Ditto for Hawaiian with many post 2000 hires holding CAPT. Post 2000 SWA Pilots are making more than DAL Pilots hired 10 years earlier.

Pay rates are only half of the equation - progression is the other half. We may be doing good (relative to BK rates) in pay, but we are a big fat "Fail" when it comes to progression. Hopefully it will get better soon but for many guys it may already be too late.

I believe DAL is in a very good position in the long term but the bottom half of the list have been stagnating for well over 10 years.

Scoop



Of course scoop does not believe DALPA caused the stagnation. That is a product of many events. But the rosy picture that DALPA painted concerning this contract does not appear to be coming to fruition as of today at least, in regards to manning the 717, the amount of retirements or the implied intent that Delta would actually replace retired pilots with new hires.

I readily admit. I thought based on what I was told DALPA that we would need to hire pilots to staff the 717 and that with the early retirement program we would see some progression and hiring. My bad.

I will also admit that stagnating as a 777 capt would probably not bother most of us to much. Or actually any capt position for that matter.

Yes the JR guys are ****ed because they have been junior for 13-15 years and are still another decade away from cracking 6000 on the seniority list. No ones fault just reality that makes for interesting conversation and good sports *****ing.

This is what my Capt told me yesterday. "You may not realize it but being a Capt for an additional 5 years has really helped me financially, I know that it has not been good for you but the airlines is all about timing". Very accurate statement.

 

DALPA's willingness to cede massive efficiencies outside of bankruptcy are completely self-induced, and compound the other difficulties you mentioned.

"Our" "union" should be working its tail off to prevent/reduce stagnation; it should not be one of the factors making stagnation worse.

 

Not sure what you're reaching for FTB. Weight limits from the previous contract remain intact, & total DCI seats decreased.

 

There's a lot of reasons there is mass stagnation on our seniority list, I agree. I think your question overall is if it's not all DALPAs fault why the angst directed at DALPA?

Imho and my best guess there's three reasons this comes up:

• Did we really have to give up pilot productivity? The contract wasn't even due up yet and the company is profitable, why do that?

• Large RJ creep with no plan to stop or reverse it.

• We're setting the precedent we'll pay for our own mainline airplanes through scope sales.

And then I guess you could add fervently co-selling a TA that has issues.

 

Yeah, you could. I remember getting all those emails detailing the reasons not to vote for the...wait, no it wasn't emails; it was those glossy products in my file in the lounge that....errrr wait, I didn't get those either. My memory is failing me...it must have been the road shows pointing out some of the reasons why the proposed TA....uhhh, no that wasn't it. Remind me, how could you say the same thing about the sales job on why we shouldn't vote for the TA?

 

Other airlines with similar post-deregulation demographics are hiring. A widebody fleet less than half the size of everyone else and intl code shares/joint ventures aren't helping. Those are contractual items. To answer your question, yes ALPA has created stagnation, revitalized the RJ industry and set us on a solid path towards being like the merchant marines. Sadly I long for the day a company like Emirates can hire into some decent bases, I'd be long gone.