Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
09-08-2009, 01:21 PM
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Originally Posted by Tomcat
Will you answer one question for me? What did we gain by giving up on the 70 seat "line in the sand"?
See, you may call it emotional, but I still have not gotten over Lee telling me twice, face to face that would would not allow anyone other than Delta pilots to fly anything over 70 seats. Weeks later, the MEC told me the same thing in a large public forum. Do you think I'm being emotional because I'm asking for these answers? Is it emotional that I have some trust issues with our MEC. I don't think so. I think my attitude is trust, but verify. Please give me a straight answer to these questions. How can we know where we're going if we don't understand where we've been.
TC
See, you may call it emotional, but I still have not gotten over Lee telling me twice, face to face that would would not allow anyone other than Delta pilots to fly anything over 70 seats. Weeks later, the MEC told me the same thing in a large public forum. Do you think I'm being emotional because I'm asking for these answers? Is it emotional that I have some trust issues with our MEC. I don't think so. I think my attitude is trust, but verify. Please give me a straight answer to these questions. How can we know where we're going if we don't understand where we've been.
TC
Lease holders including ILFC, the largest owner of aircraft in the world
Boeing
US Bank
American Express
Numerous hedge funds
Boston Airport Authority
CVG Airport
Well, just about every airport in the country
Delta shareholders who got a big goose egg out it
This list can go on and on. What did the owners of our MD-11's get in bankruptcy? A nice how-de-do from the judge and a request from to Delta to let us know where to drop off the jets we just threw in their lap.
Everyone set really high goals to achieve in our 1113 process. Of course they would communicate those goals to the pilots. What would you have preferred, "We'll do our best." In the end, like pretty much everyone everywhere, DALPA fell short of their goals. If you look at the company's original ask in 1113, you will see they fell very short of their goals, in fact the end result was much closer to our side than theirs.
If you can't understand that people set high goals and then didn't achieve 100% then I don't know what to say. Everyone was real disappointed with how things turned out, it is just I haven't seen a lot of suggestions about how to do better. I hope you noticed the $2 billion in bankruptcy returns we got. That pretty much exceeded everyone's goals.
If you can't get over your disappointment then there is nothing to say except you are being emotional. Life is full of disappointments. Move on. Bankruptcy is a pretty big hammer and you are not realistic if you think your toes won't get smashed a little too.
09-08-2009, 01:29 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
I enjoy having spirited discussions with you, and Bucking Bar, and SatChip, and others about this. I hope DALPA is listening, I really think they get it. Perhaps there needs to be better communication, that is always a valid point if the message is not getting through. I just don't get the attack part. DALPA is just a bunch of ordinary pilots trying to do their best for the rest of the group. If they aren't doing what you want then communicate that to your reps in a calm professional manner. It will always go over much better than emotional attacks. Just because that is how politics is played out in our society today, that doesn't mean we have to stoop to their level. Glenn Beck and Keith Olberman are not good role models.
It is good that there is a broad field running for Council 44, that is good for the union. For those that are running, just remember that there are other issues out there besides scope. I don't want to bust any bubbles, but I guarantee that the number one concern of pilots right now is pay. It is not reflected on the webboards but that is a self selecting population that is very vocal. I would guess at least 80% of Delta pilots put pay as their number one concern. Scope and retirement would be fighting for a distant second. We all want democracy, but the will of the majority is not determined by who shouts the loudest. That is a mob (like those town hall meetings). Democracy is listening to all the people you represent.
What I object to is the personalization of the discussion (not directed at you but at others). Lee Moak is just one part of the team. He is a very important part, but he would be the first to say that if he were replaced the team would move on. He doesn't spend a nanosecond worrying about recall. He would just bid his schedule and go have lattes in Paris and then spend a lot more time at home with his family. He would burn his Blackberry.
Some people have become obsessed that all their problems reside in this one person. I have seen immature reactions based on an MEC Chairman as either the source of all good or all bad. This is just not the case. Without a strong team, an MEC Chairman is worthless. Without a functioning MEC that puts the pilots above personal politics the Chairman is greatly handicapped. Being part of the team means that once the team decides, you put your silly personal pride away and support the team. It is not about "me, me, me".
That is why I urge a strong business like approach to problem solving. Emotional, personal politics fails almost every time.
It is good that there is a broad field running for Council 44, that is good for the union. For those that are running, just remember that there are other issues out there besides scope. I don't want to bust any bubbles, but I guarantee that the number one concern of pilots right now is pay. It is not reflected on the webboards but that is a self selecting population that is very vocal. I would guess at least 80% of Delta pilots put pay as their number one concern. Scope and retirement would be fighting for a distant second. We all want democracy, but the will of the majority is not determined by who shouts the loudest. That is a mob (like those town hall meetings). Democracy is listening to all the people you represent.
What I object to is the personalization of the discussion (not directed at you but at others). Lee Moak is just one part of the team. He is a very important part, but he would be the first to say that if he were replaced the team would move on. He doesn't spend a nanosecond worrying about recall. He would just bid his schedule and go have lattes in Paris and then spend a lot more time at home with his family. He would burn his Blackberry.
Some people have become obsessed that all their problems reside in this one person. I have seen immature reactions based on an MEC Chairman as either the source of all good or all bad. This is just not the case. Without a strong team, an MEC Chairman is worthless. Without a functioning MEC that puts the pilots above personal politics the Chairman is greatly handicapped. Being part of the team means that once the team decides, you put your silly personal pride away and support the team. It is not about "me, me, me".
That is why I urge a strong business like approach to problem solving. Emotional, personal politics fails almost every time.
As you state personalization of the attacks. I have actually discussed this with a few people, and they have well though out responses. Their number one issue and why they direct the angst towards one person or the MEC is that they see the MEC Chair as having too much power with the appointments of the Chair of the committees, to name a few. Just food for though.
I do not think that based on the conversations I have had with those running that any have the me, me, me, in them. The are running to represent the best interests of the group they are seeking election from. A question raised was how can we have these votes by acclimation, when there are different wants and needs from different LEC's. There is no way that if you are truly representing the interests of your pilots that there should be these votes by acclimation. Again, food for thought.
It should never about me, or you, or them. It should be about what the majority of the pilots want, and given that want, the willingness to get it. Em are the hard facts If there is not rank and file support, you will never get what you are asking for.
As for pay vs scope. We can have a philosophical debate all day. I am of the opinion that without a formidable section one, the rest of the contract is susceptible to concessionary bargaining. We have given up scope in the concessionary periods in the past. It is what it is. I am of the mind that what is done is done. I do not wish to settle a score or prove that yes, in fact you were the one to blame. It solves nothing. What I want to do is look forward, realize that you cannot continue to sell scope(no matter what type, small, large, JV or Code Share) and expect long term gains in pay and retirement to stick.
To solve this cycle we have been on, we need to do something to change Scope and how we see it. It really is not a bargaining tool. We are at the point that one more slip means another fleet of jets. IMO the 9's will probably be gone at the next uptick in the economy when we add back in the 757's. We allow 86/88 seats in the CR9/E-series platform, we are getting to the point that they many just say to heck with the 88's. If we give them 100 seat jets to get that 300 dollar an hr 777 rate, they are gone. No doubt about that. The notion of, "not one seat, one, pound" is where we are. We have to be.
If you think this is ugly, I hate to see the day the DC-9 gets parked and there is no replacement for it. In my crystal ball the 767/757's that are in storage will minimize to null a need for furloughs, but those are jets were ones we already had.
I think this whole take it back push, might subside if the company would put a 76+ seat jet at mainline. They say that it is seven years off. In this industry that is two life times, and way to much time to sit idly by waiting for the good to come. People are mad, and they are just going to strike out at the easiest target. As you say our Chair does not care, it goes with the position.
My request is better communication top to bottom. If the facts are out there, and the direction that is being taken is known, there is a lot less that can be put in to question. Yes, there are some of us that will disagree, but you might get rid of the contingent that is just irked because they want to know.
As they say knowledge is half the battle.
09-08-2009, 01:31 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
I am not slowplay but what we got for the 76 seat issue was not having our whole contract rejected and then allowing 200 79 seaters. Bankruptcy is not a lot about choices it is a lot about having your rear end handed to you by a court. Look at the cast of characters that ate it in our bankruptcy:
Lease holders including ILFC, the largest owner of aircraft in the world
Boeing
US Bank
American Express
Numerous hedge funds
Boston Airport Authority
CVG Airport
Well, just about every airport in the country
Delta shareholders who got a big goose egg out it
This list can go on and on. What did the owners of our MD-11's get in bankruptcy? A nice how-de-do from the judge and a request from to Delta to let us know where to drop off the jets we just threw in their lap.
Everyone set really high goals to achieve in our 1113 process. Of course they would communicate those goals to the pilots. What would you have preferred, "We'll do our best." In the end, like pretty much everyone everywhere, DALPA fell short of their goals. If you look at the company's original ask in 1113, you will see they fell very short of their goals, in fact the end result was much closer to our side than theirs.
If you can't understand that people set high goals and then didn't achieve 100% then I don't know what to say. Everyone was real disappointed with how things turned out, it is just I haven't seen a lot of suggestions about how to do better. I hope you noticed the $2 billion in bankruptcy returns we got. That pretty much exceeded everyone's goals.
If you can't get over your disappointment then there is nothing to say except you are being emotional. Life is full of disappointments. Move on. Bankruptcy is a pretty big hammer and you are not realistic if you think your toes won't get smashed a little too.
Lease holders including ILFC, the largest owner of aircraft in the world
Boeing
US Bank
American Express
Numerous hedge funds
Boston Airport Authority
CVG Airport
Well, just about every airport in the country
Delta shareholders who got a big goose egg out it
This list can go on and on. What did the owners of our MD-11's get in bankruptcy? A nice how-de-do from the judge and a request from to Delta to let us know where to drop off the jets we just threw in their lap.
Everyone set really high goals to achieve in our 1113 process. Of course they would communicate those goals to the pilots. What would you have preferred, "We'll do our best." In the end, like pretty much everyone everywhere, DALPA fell short of their goals. If you look at the company's original ask in 1113, you will see they fell very short of their goals, in fact the end result was much closer to our side than theirs.
If you can't understand that people set high goals and then didn't achieve 100% then I don't know what to say. Everyone was real disappointed with how things turned out, it is just I haven't seen a lot of suggestions about how to do better. I hope you noticed the $2 billion in bankruptcy returns we got. That pretty much exceeded everyone's goals.
If you can't get over your disappointment then there is nothing to say except you are being emotional. Life is full of disappointments. Move on. Bankruptcy is a pretty big hammer and you are not realistic if you think your toes won't get smashed a little too.
Again good points. 1113C was ugly, no doubt about that.
I think that what people want to see is a firm commitment from the DALPA leadership that we want to take back this flying we had taken from us in 1113C. That right there, is a firm commitment that resonates what the majority of pilots want. Nothing earth shattering there.
09-08-2009, 01:43 PM
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Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Left, left, left right left....
Posts: 911
Originally Posted by thrustsetrj200
I'm sure some of you would be happy to know that as of today Delta has announced that 13 additional Mesaba Saab leases will be terminated and sent back to Saab starting Feb 2010. That equals at least 130 more furloughs for Mesaba. That makes for a total of about 260 Mesaba Pilots furloughed.
09-08-2009, 02:19 PM
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: SLC ERB
Posts: 467
Originally Posted by slowplay
Anyone who can think....nice!
The only metric where DCI is "growing" is ASMs. They are carrying some passengers longer distances, but their total share of passengers is declining. Mainline domestic block hours went from 51.5% to 56.2% of total system domestic block hours from January 07 through March 09.
Oh, even thought they now have 153 of the new 76 seat jets, their total aircraft count is down over 100. That means 250+ of their "old" aircraft have been parked. They're shrinking, and shrinking aggressively.
Anyone who can think will look at facts and not let emotional spin get in the way of their "I don't like it" rants.
Nobody is saying you have to like it. Let's just deal with real data, please.
The only metric where DCI is "growing" is ASMs. They are carrying some passengers longer distances, but their total share of passengers is declining. Mainline domestic block hours went from 51.5% to 56.2% of total system domestic block hours from January 07 through March 09.
Oh, even thought they now have 153 of the new 76 seat jets, their total aircraft count is down over 100. That means 250+ of their "old" aircraft have been parked. They're shrinking, and shrinking aggressively.
Anyone who can think will look at facts and not let emotional spin get in the way of their "I don't like it" rants.
Nobody is saying you have to like it. Let's just deal with real data, please.
09-08-2009, 02:46 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,839
Heyas,
Another two guys just threw their hats in the ring for FO rep in DTW. Should make for an interesting election cycle...
Nu
Another two guys just threw their hats in the ring for FO rep in DTW. Should make for an interesting election cycle...
Nu
09-08-2009, 03:13 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Posts: 195
Originally Posted by Fly4hire
To less regional feed yes, to furloughs no. Just a point of order: how many years of 121 flying do those getting furlough now have?
If we furlough as many as I think we will, then that would put the DOH back into early 2007 and maybe late 2006.
09-08-2009, 03:21 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Originally Posted by thrustsetrj200
I could see how you'd be happy that the RJ900 was being taken away. But the Saab? Really? We should be getting MORE Saabs and less 900s. Someone earlier said that it takes less time to get in your car and drive to some of these Saab cities.That's a major reason Delta wants to get rid of the Saabs. However, I'm pretty sure that the majority of these passengers are connecting through MSP or DTW from somewhere else. They aren't originating in the hubs. I don't see how less regional feed from the Saab is a good thing for mainline.
If we furlough as many as I think we will, then that would put the DOH back into early 2007 and maybe late 2006.
If we furlough as many as I think we will, then that would put the DOH back into early 2007 and maybe late 2006.
09-08-2009, 03:24 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: G550 Captain
Posts: 1,206
Originally Posted by thrustsetrj200
I could see how you'd be happy that the RJ900 was being taken away. But the Saab? Really? We should be getting MORE Saabs and less 900s. Someone earlier said that it takes less time to get in your car and drive to some of these Saab cities.That's a major reason Delta wants to get rid of the Saabs. However, I'm pretty sure that the majority of these passengers are connecting through MSP or DTW from somewhere else. They aren't originating in the hubs. I don't see how less regional feed from the Saab is a good thing for mainline.
If we furlough as many as I think we will, then that would put the DOH back into early 2007 and maybe late 2006.
If we furlough as many as I think we will, then that would put the DOH back into early 2007 and maybe late 2006.
Saabs being parked should not come as a surprise if you have been following the lease due dates for Saabs and the surrounding facts. DAL is just not interested in serving small cities which are not making money. Saab wants certain lease rates for renewal and DAL is not interested. Saab can make more money leasing Saabs in Europe or elsewhere, apparently.
I am in total agreement with those who thinks all 76 plus jets should be absorbed into DAL mainline flying, but I am sceptical that will ever happen.
All DAL brand name flying should be flown by DAL under the DAL one seniority list.
09-08-2009, 03:25 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Flying the SEC
Posts: 2,350
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
I enjoy having spirited discussions with you, and Bucking Bar, and SatChip, and others about this. I hope DALPA is listening, I really think they get it. Perhaps there needs to be better communication, that is always a valid point if the message is not getting through. I just don't get the attack part. DALPA is just a bunch of ordinary pilots trying to do their best for the rest of the group. If they aren't doing what you want then communicate that to your reps in a calm professional manner. It will always go over much better than emotional attacks. Just because that is how politics is played out in our society today, that doesn't mean we have to stoop to their level. Glenn Beck and Keith Olberman are not good role models.
It is good that there is a broad field running for Council 44, that is good for the union. For those that are running, just remember that there are other issues out there besides scope. I don't want to bust any bubbles, but I guarantee that the number one concern of pilots right now is pay. It is not reflected on the webboards but that is a self selecting population that is very vocal. I would guess at least 80% of Delta pilots put pay as their number one concern. Scope and retirement would be fighting for a distant second. We all want democracy, but the will of the majority is not determined by who shouts the loudest. That is a mob (like those town hall meetings). Democracy is listening to all the people you represent.
What I object to is the personalization of the discussion (not directed at you but at others). Lee Moak is just one part of the team. He is a very important part, but he would be the first to say that if he were replaced the team would move on. He doesn't spend a nanosecond worrying about recall. He would just bid his schedule and go have lattes in Paris and then spend a lot more time at home with his family. He would burn his Blackberry.
Some people have become obsessed that all their problems reside in this one person. I have seen immature reactions based on an MEC Chairman as either the source of all good or all bad. This is just not the case. Without a strong team, an MEC Chairman is worthless. Without a functioning MEC that puts the pilots above personal politics the Chairman is greatly handicapped. Being part of the team means that once the team decides, you put your silly personal pride away and support the team. It is not about "me, me, me".
That is why I urge a strong business like approach to problem solving. Emotional, personal politics fails almost every time.
It is good that there is a broad field running for Council 44, that is good for the union. For those that are running, just remember that there are other issues out there besides scope. I don't want to bust any bubbles, but I guarantee that the number one concern of pilots right now is pay. It is not reflected on the webboards but that is a self selecting population that is very vocal. I would guess at least 80% of Delta pilots put pay as their number one concern. Scope and retirement would be fighting for a distant second. We all want democracy, but the will of the majority is not determined by who shouts the loudest. That is a mob (like those town hall meetings). Democracy is listening to all the people you represent.
What I object to is the personalization of the discussion (not directed at you but at others). Lee Moak is just one part of the team. He is a very important part, but he would be the first to say that if he were replaced the team would move on. He doesn't spend a nanosecond worrying about recall. He would just bid his schedule and go have lattes in Paris and then spend a lot more time at home with his family. He would burn his Blackberry.
Some people have become obsessed that all their problems reside in this one person. I have seen immature reactions based on an MEC Chairman as either the source of all good or all bad. This is just not the case. Without a strong team, an MEC Chairman is worthless. Without a functioning MEC that puts the pilots above personal politics the Chairman is greatly handicapped. Being part of the team means that once the team decides, you put your silly personal pride away and support the team. It is not about "me, me, me".
That is why I urge a strong business like approach to problem solving. Emotional, personal politics fails almost every time.
I too lament the personalization and demonization of individuals. It seems that certain people have a real hard on for LM and some others. It makes me wonder if they have another agenda.
I totally agree with the business approach of our MEC. I also think that the economics of DCI have changed to make us more competitive for that segment of lift. But how are we ever going to know if our MEC won't look at the issue or publish the results?
As for pay being more important than scope, I agree it is probably foremost on most pilot's minds but I'm with ACL, it is short sighted. Without a strong section 1, the rest don't mean nut'in. Besides, I don't want to be paid the most, I want to be paid the longest. Time value of money.
BTW, for the record its Satch_ip. Can't put underscores in screen names.
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