Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
09-12-2009, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by acl65pilot
Guys there are ways to get new airplanes. Deals can be made to return existing ones for new ones. Just wait.
09-12-2009, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy
Agreed. But here's the $64,000 question come 2012. Do we try to get 80% of what we think is "fair", realizing it will take 3+ years of extended contract negotiations to get that. Or do we settle for 70% and wrap it up in a year, but be labeled as caving again?
To play devil's advocate, you agree to a contract in 2012-12013. 48 months later it is 2017-2018. Doing your charting where does that leave the world economy? It might prove wise to do a quickie here and drag the next one out, or vice verse depending on how you read the economy and world politics.
And before anybody says I'm caving to accept 70-80%, realize that 70% to us is 100% to the company, and 80% is 110%. We will never agree on what's "fair". We will point to C2K plus inflation; the company will point to industry standard. My bet is we'll end up at the top of the industry, but below C2K + inflation.
09-12-2009, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by johnso29
But we want GROWTH!
My point is that there are options out there for other manufactures besides the two that we have. As RA stated, we want Two to THREE on property. What do you think that third one would be and what do you think they would be willing to do to get the "World's Largest Airline" to sign on with them?
09-12-2009, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by acl65pilot
I did not say we would just be trading in old mainline jets did I?
My point is that there are options out there for other manufactures besides the two that we have. As RA stated, we want Two to THREE on property. What do you think that third one would be and what do you think they would be willing to do to get the "World's Largest Airline" to sign on with them?
My point is that there are options out there for other manufactures besides the two that we have. As RA stated, we want Two to THREE on property. What do you think that third one would be and what do you think they would be willing to do to get the "World's Largest Airline" to sign on with them?
09-12-2009, 12:03 PM
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Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,716
[quote=Sink r8;677539]How does ALPA have input on F/A actions? And what about the pilots? Did ALPA want them to cross too?
... Look, I don't have the background on the AMFA strike, and maybe a lot of it will make sense as I discover more. For now, it will suffice to say that we each have our approach, and our F/A's have their approach. You may have backed up yours in a way that was quite honorable and logical, and we've probably done the same. Right now, seems that the South F/A's voted down AFA, and it seems that we are, at a minimum, supportive of their wishes.
As we work together, maybe we'll understand each other better. And maybe the consensus will be among F/A's that they want a union, in which case: more power to them. For right now, I wouldn't inpugn the motive of either pilot group for how they are or aren't helping or respecting the F/A's by interfering in their affairs.
So I suggest we don't have a big debate about who is rightly supporting what, and we wait to get these groups on one page to figure out what they want, and what we want. In the meantime, Nu's question is not framed correctly. This has nothing to do with respect or trade unionism, and everything to do with the context in which different parts our "family" operated under before.
Afetr Nu and I get to sepnd some time with F/A's from the opposite pre-merger group, maybe this discussion can take place again, with better information on both sides.[/qu
...I think if you think it through on the F/A's you will figure it out. AMFA was not quite as clear cut as you would imagine.
... Look, I don't have the background on the AMFA strike, and maybe a lot of it will make sense as I discover more. For now, it will suffice to say that we each have our approach, and our F/A's have their approach. You may have backed up yours in a way that was quite honorable and logical, and we've probably done the same. Right now, seems that the South F/A's voted down AFA, and it seems that we are, at a minimum, supportive of their wishes.
As we work together, maybe we'll understand each other better. And maybe the consensus will be among F/A's that they want a union, in which case: more power to them. For right now, I wouldn't inpugn the motive of either pilot group for how they are or aren't helping or respecting the F/A's by interfering in their affairs.
So I suggest we don't have a big debate about who is rightly supporting what, and we wait to get these groups on one page to figure out what they want, and what we want. In the meantime, Nu's question is not framed correctly. This has nothing to do with respect or trade unionism, and everything to do with the context in which different parts our "family" operated under before.
Afetr Nu and I get to sepnd some time with F/A's from the opposite pre-merger group, maybe this discussion can take place again, with better information on both sides.[/qu
...I think if you think it through on the F/A's you will figure it out. AMFA was not quite as clear cut as you would imagine.
09-12-2009, 12:10 PM
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Posts: 3,839
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
Nu and ACL +1
On another note - the Labor Day Parade down 5th Avenue was most impressive. The trades went out of their way to give to the people in attendance. The Baker's Union made breakfast and served lots of yummy treats. The display of generosity made their "stop outsourcing our jobs" message more poignant. Having kids and wives there also sent a powerful message that these are American Families.
Out of the thousands of workers on the streets, there was not a single Pilot. Why? We share the same issues with our AFL-CIO affiliates. Scope, pay, retirement, medical ....
I'd like to retire the blow up Rat. If we decide it in our interest to make a statement in advance of Contract 2012, I'd hope we look around and see what works. Drum Corps, Family involvement and charitable work all seem like good ideas. The Electrician's Union had a 9 foot, 400lb, monster of a guy leading a drum corps in front of 3,000 or so. Kinda makes us in ALPA look like Brownies at a Bake Sale in comparison.
If ever I again don the uniform to walk in circles let me suggest hiring a marching band, or three, to blare the Battle Hymn of the Republic and beat their drums loud enough that every politician in DC and even Richard Branson can hear it in London. More fun than the inflatable Rat in any event.
On another note - the Labor Day Parade down 5th Avenue was most impressive. The trades went out of their way to give to the people in attendance. The Baker's Union made breakfast and served lots of yummy treats. The display of generosity made their "stop outsourcing our jobs" message more poignant. Having kids and wives there also sent a powerful message that these are American Families.
Out of the thousands of workers on the streets, there was not a single Pilot. Why? We share the same issues with our AFL-CIO affiliates. Scope, pay, retirement, medical ....
I'd like to retire the blow up Rat. If we decide it in our interest to make a statement in advance of Contract 2012, I'd hope we look around and see what works. Drum Corps, Family involvement and charitable work all seem like good ideas. The Electrician's Union had a 9 foot, 400lb, monster of a guy leading a drum corps in front of 3,000 or so. Kinda makes us in ALPA look like Brownies at a Bake Sale in comparison.
If ever I again don the uniform to walk in circles let me suggest hiring a marching band, or three, to blare the Battle Hymn of the Republic and beat their drums loud enough that every politician in DC and even Richard Branson can hear it in London. More fun than the inflatable Rat in any event.
The most critical thing about negotiations in 2012 is to make sure the talks center around the needs of the DAL pilot.
When the union says "we looked at the numbers", did they look at the numbers provided by the company, or did they actually look at the books?
Like getting a pre-purchase inspection from a mechanic that the SELLER hired, you need to really look at who's interest that the players are looking out for.
Legal opinions also. Ask yourself "who's paying the bill?" Sometimes second opinions from a third party are a really good idea, even if it means some $$$.
Lot's of grey, and LOTS of hard questions to ask.
Nu
09-12-2009, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by NuGuy
Heyas Bar,
The most critical thing about negotiations in 2012 is to make sure the talks center around the needs of the DAL pilot.
When the union says "we looked at the numbers", did they look at the numbers provided by the company, or did they actually look at the books?
Like getting a pre-purchase inspection from a mechanic that the SELLER hired, you need to really look at who's interest that the players are looking out for.
Legal opinions also. Ask yourself "who's paying the bill?" Sometimes second opinions from a third party are a really good idea, even if it means some $$$.
Lot's of grey, and LOTS of hard questions to ask.
Nu
The most critical thing about negotiations in 2012 is to make sure the talks center around the needs of the DAL pilot.
When the union says "we looked at the numbers", did they look at the numbers provided by the company, or did they actually look at the books?
Like getting a pre-purchase inspection from a mechanic that the SELLER hired, you need to really look at who's interest that the players are looking out for.
Legal opinions also. Ask yourself "who's paying the bill?" Sometimes second opinions from a third party are a really good idea, even if it means some $$$.
Lot's of grey, and LOTS of hard questions to ask.
Nu
09-12-2009, 12:18 PM
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
Originally Posted by NuGuy
When the union says "we looked at the numbers", did they look at the numbers provided by the company, or did they actually look at the books?
If you think a publicly traded company can "cook" the books, I'd like to introduce you to Sarbanes-Oxley and the post Enron/Worldcom rath for those executives that try to go down that path. I acknowlege shades of gray, but in general it's pretty easy to see if a company is reporting substantially differently from its peers and the reasons behind that diffference.
09-12-2009, 12:25 PM
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Position: Bebe Bus De L'Air Assistant Aerial Conveyance Facilitator
Posts: 351
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
I did not say we would just be trading in old mainline jets did I?
My point is that there are options out there for other manufactures besides the two that we have. As RA stated, we want Two to THREE on property. What do you think that third one would be and what do you think they would be willing to do to get the "World's Largest Airline" to sign on with them?
My point is that there are options out there for other manufactures besides the two that we have. As RA stated, we want Two to THREE on property. What do you think that third one would be and what do you think they would be willing to do to get the "World's Largest Airline" to sign on with them?
09-12-2009, 12:50 PM
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Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Originally Posted by slowplay
Weren't you one of the guys that was really ticked about Blue Wolf and Athena? The south used Milestone Merchant Partners and Athena.
If you think a publicly traded company can "cook" the books, I'd like to introduce you to Sarbanes-Oxley and the post Enron/Worldcom rath for those executives that try to go down that path. I acknowledge shades of gray, but in general it's pretty easy to see if a company is reporting substantially differently from its peers and the reasons behind that difference.
If you think a publicly traded company can "cook" the books, I'd like to introduce you to Sarbanes-Oxley and the post Enron/Worldcom rath for those executives that try to go down that path. I acknowledge shades of gray, but in general it's pretty easy to see if a company is reporting substantially differently from its peers and the reasons behind that difference.
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