acl65pilot

I agree, we are very efficient. I also agree that a lot of this was done to us with a gun to our head. 2012 could compensate up for these changes.
I would love to see a ton of those changed. I would also like to see reserve rules and credit changed. Training credit changed, vacation credit changed, to name a few. I am sure we will have a long list for goals of C2012.

Bucking Bar

ooops ... double post .... s l o w c o nn e c t i o n,

acl65pilot

This is a really good point. Many need to be pragmatic enough to realize that waiting five years for a contract while you could be making that money is definitely something to consider. To the pilots that will be retiring it means everything. The willingness to negotiate to a quick settlement really depends on the makeup of the MEC, the demands of the company, the demands of the pilots, and the economy.
We should expect decent gains in 2012. There is still a lot of the dance leading up to the opener that needs to be decided though. The best advice is to educate yourself as much as possible.

acl65pilot

I am sure if would have been a sight to see!

Bucking Bar

Nu and ACL +1

On another note - the Labor Day Parade down 5th Avenue was most impressive. The trades went out of their way to give to the people in attendance. The Baker's Union made breakfast and served lots of yummy treats. The display of generosity made their "stop outsourcing our jobs" message more poignant. Having kids and wives there also sent a powerful message that these are American Families.

Out of the thousands of workers on the streets, there was not a single Pilot. Why? We share the same issues with our AFL-CIO affiliates. Scope, pay, retirement, medical ....

I'd like to retire the blow up Rat. If we decide it in our interest to make a statement in advance of Contract 2012, I'd hope we look around and see what works. Drum Corps, Family involvement and charitable work all seem like good ideas. The Electrician's Union had a 9 foot, 400lb, monster of a guy leading a drum corps in front of 3,000 or so. Kinda makes us in ALPA look like Brownies at a Bake Sale in comparison.

If ever I again don the uniform to walk in circles let me suggest hiring a marching band, or three, to blare the Battle Hymn of the Republic and beat their drums loud enough that every politician in DC and even Richard Branson can hear it in London. More fun than the inflatable Rat in any event.

KC10 FATboy

I'm a new dog in this fight, a new hire. I haven't yet lived through a furlough, nor have I seen half of my pay and all of my retirement stolen.

What concerns me is if we go forward with restoring the record setting pay, does that leave us exposed to the major LCCs (SWA, jetBlue, AirTran)? And could they essentially put us back into bankruptcy within a year?

We need SWA and the other LCCs to also achieve record setting contracts. Otherwise, they will once again eat up market share and we will continue to see DAL shrink domestically. If that continues, we risk losing the entire airline because of no domestic feed to international (PanAm).

Additionally, we need the other legacies to push forward with major advances in contracts. I think if we are the first to move, we lose the farm. If we were successful and restored the pay, what would the average increase in the price of a ticket come to? Would our passengers be willing to pay it? Additionally, I would imagine furloughs as a result. And as a new hire, I would accept that assuming we didn't bankrupt the company. It just sickens me that companies like SWA who chipped away at everyone else, is now the industry leader in pay, yet, they are a far cry of what the industry standard used to be.

I know there's a lot that I need to learn here, and I'm welcome to be ridiculed for my young and ignorant thoughts.

newKnow

Bar,

I love the sentiment. But, unfortunately my answer to me is disapointing. In my experience, a large percentage of pilots think that pilots are the only labor group who need union representation. Look at our message boards and see the disparaging remarks aimed at the UAW and their workers. See what we did when our mechanics went on strike. Take note of the lack of support we give our own employees in their union efforts. How many DAL pilots support the efforts of our FA's to unionize? Most of the pilots I talk to are against FA representation and I have heard of some who are actively lobbying the FA's to vote no.


I'm sure this post will spark some spirited debate, which IMO will be great. So my questions are, how is it that we as pilots can expect any goodwill from the community and press, when we can't even support our own fellow union brothers and sisters? Why are a lot of us so anti-union when it comes to other people professions? It doesn't make sense to march in a parade when you don't respect the people you are marching with.

New K Now

Sink r8

I think your question is flawed. Taking a neutral stance on AFA (as opposed to actually lobbying against it, which is not approriate) is not failing to respect anyone, nor is it being "anti-union".

I've been down the road of supporting those of our F/A's that wanted a union before, to no avail. For a variety of reasons, I'm done. I'm content to let them choose, but I don't believe there is any benefit to my group in supporting them. Let them decide their own destiny. It's not my job to influence them one way or another.

Further, riddle me this: how does AFA explain crossing the picket lines when the NW mechanics were on strike? How does an airline run through a strike without mechanics without complicit pilots being rather... deliberate with the logbook write-ups?

So I think we should simply agree the line not to be stopped is ...a picket line. Beyond that, other people do what they want, and organized if and how they want.

acl65pilot

Good points, but rememeber that the game and how DAL plays it has changed since 2001.

We are in a totally different position Globally then we were in 2001. We are a different company with a different focus, different core business principles etc. We do not fly 10,000 seats a day to Mikey World. We do not fly 767's to BDL every other hr. We have moved the assets around, and when the economy recovers we will see a major shift in the bottom line.

I am sure as the day is long that the union will do an effective and complete Cost Analysis of their proposal prior to throwing it across the table. We will know what the costs are and how each of them will effect the bottom lime and our ability to compete in the domestic and international arena. Thinking otherwise is short sighted. This group is smart, and in my opinion has learned from all of the mistakes on both sides of the table.

SWA is doing no better or worse than it was in 2001. They have gotten some moderate gains, but overall they have stayed where the rest of us have retreated. I would venture to bet that if none of the other majors gets wages on par with them, they will have to retreat. SWA has the cushion to play this out for a few years.

AMR, and CAL are well in to their talks. Both are our for blood and I am guessing will be decided long before we enter. They are working off of our JPWA. UAUA's pilots are madder than a hornet and have given so much to an inept management team that I do not see them giving the farm to keep them afloat.
The point of this is we really are the last ones up. We will have a fairly good perspective of how things are going forward come 2012. This industry's face will be totally different by then to. It appears we are on the cusp of some real consolidation beyond our own. The fact that all airlines have deeply cut capacity will allow pricing power when demand returns. The "if" to that, is if they all do not get drunk with adding capacity back in. I feel our team will be constrained in that endeavor. I also think that many others will be too. No one wants to get burnt by that fire again. That is where the real chance at sustained profitability comes from.
The credit markets are not drunk on aviation like they have been in the past. These guys are very concerned about the negative returns on investing in our industry. Going forward, I do not see these guys giving money to the start up de jour. The will want to help the players left so that the can reap significant returns on their investments.

iceman49

Because ALPA wanted the f/a's to cross.