But ALPA is almost a total disaster to a regional or regional pilots. It wouldn't be if it was fair and equal but it along with mainline pilots ALPA and mainline pilots don't care and don't want it to be. Mainline fears cabotage but mainline pilots also want to do the same thing to regionals. Take back what is considered their flying at any and all costs regardless.
Because of the McCaskill Bond amendment a major cannot just throw all pilots to the curb when it buys another major. Wouldn't you think it should also apply when a major buys a regional? If not why?

 

Agree 100%. BB is indeed the smartest person in the room. I enjoy reading his posts.

Also agree that stage length has a huge impact on QOL. 2 years on the 200 was a beat down. The 700/900 is like the country club compared to the 200. Life has been much more enjoyable and trips go by much faster since coming over.

I'll be surprised if the 717 keeps going senior. It has a nice cockpit but those short stage lengths and multiple legs might change some folks minds. 88 seems to have much longer legs to a wider variety of destinations(Caribbean etc)

 

Sample 700/900 Trip:

DH ATL-DTW
DTW-MDW
MDW-DTW
DTW-IAH
Long Overnight

IAH-MSP
Long Overnight

MSP-EWR
Short Overnight

EWR-MSP
MSP-IAH
DH IAH-ATL

17 block/23.5 Credit

 

Just explaining the "why."

There are two ways to get to a merger. First, is when an airline's management wants a merger for their business. Second, when the workers force the matter.

In the second case, at Delta, the Delta Pilot Working Agreement with management stipuates that if the Company acquires an airline which operates aircraft above the limit of permitted aircraft (over 76 seats) then management has agreed to a merger.

The other way to force a merger would be to ask the National Mediation Board to find that the acquired carrier is part of a single transportation system and that the employees are part of the same craft and class for representation. The reason why Compass was unceremoniously kicked out of the Delta representational structure was to help define those small jet pilots outside of the "craft and class" of Delta pilots. ALPA has worked to define permitted flying as no longer Delta flying, performed by Delta pilots, so as to avoid a merger.

 

Well, since you asked...

I wasn't. Back when it mattered to me. In 1991.

If Delta wants to buy RJ's, or any aircraft at all, that's their prerogative. Always has been. Delta can interview and hire Delta pilots and we'll fly 'em. Delta did not do that.

NOW, years later, you're talking about merging many other airline's pilots that Delta did not interview and hire and negotiating SLI's and all the chaos that comes with that, keeping in mind that a staple is in no way a given. Then dealing with the inevitable DFR lawsuits. Now the pilot voting membership is suddenly way more junior on average, and guess what kind of a contract they'll want? Not necessarily the same objectives our current seniority list wants.

So... no thanks.

And spare me the pie in the sky "solutions" that have about as much merit as a national seniority list. Please try to understand my point of view. Age and seniority do play a part in how each person views these kinds of things.

 

First of all, and I don't intend this to sound confrontational, it is our flying to take back. DCI flying exists as an exception in Section 1 of the Delta PWA. And yes, we absolutely want it back - some more than others.

As to the second part I bolded above, no I don't think DCI pilots should be shown the door. The question is how to do it so nobody is "harmed."

The main problem that might create this opportunity is the lack of pilots at the DCI carriers. If we can somehow leverage that into fixing the company's staffing problem, we might have a chance of undoing some of the evil that has been done to this profession. Bar points out that we need to return this to a career worth pursuing. To do that, there must be a path (not the current dead end) to an actual career. Enough of this BS about paying dues.

That said, there is no way in hell this thing gets off the ground if there is any form of assertion by the DCI pilots that they merit an integration above the bottom of the mainline lists. Call it arrogant, or whatever you want, but it is true. It will be opposed to the end of time by the mainline MEC's - so how do we get around that?

Each group needs to be stroked to make this happen. It would have to be something like this:

1. Management - they need to protect their feed, ensuring that the small jets are staffed properly. They also will require (especially the first mover) that any solution does not jack their costs substantially higher than the other big Legacies.

2. Mainline Pilots - need to be protected against any further career stagnation. Any solution that doesn't at least remain "career neutral" will be met with overwhelming resistance. Most would love to see the flying brought home - for furlough protection, upgrade opportunities, and even some for rehabilitation of this profession.

3. Regional Pilots - they need a career. They're sick of the carrot and the whip. Any solution, especially one that will attract new entrants to the profession, must include a mainline seniority number and all the pay/benefits that go along with it.

One solution: To solve management's math problem (Slowplay ) the costs can't get out of control, at least not initially. Delta would likely have to wait until the performance gets so bad that the regional contracts can be cancelled - it's unlikely the regional management teams will just give it up. Once they go all Freedom on us, Delta could reclaim their contracts and offer to assume leases of the airframes that they aren't already on the hook for.

The pilots currently flying them would be offered employment as a newhire on a temporary B scale (at least it's not C-scale right?) They would receive a Delta ID and seniority number, and would continue flying the airplanes at their current rates. This would allow the cost to be increased over a period of time to the Delta PWA rates, at which point the B scale would dissolve.

Of course this gets more expensive for Delta, but they also save in all the ways that have been pointed out of the past 20 years (redundant crews, management layers, etc, etc). Importantly, the brand benefits, employees are more motivated because they now have equity in the brand, and these pilots have a career to look forward to. Mainline pilots are happy that the flying is back, and they weren't harmed during the process.

There are many details to work out, such as how to decide the seniority list order when folding in the multitude of DCI carriers. The only way I see to do that is to determine the number of pilot slots being absorbed from each carrier and then start offering the spots to each group's #1 on a rotating basis until everyone is tacked onto the list. There will undoubtedly be some that are ****ed, but that's inevitable.

Of course everything I just typed is an academic exercise until Delta/United/AA decide that they want to play in this game. As Bar pointed out earlier, there is a first-mover advantage that will lock in a great percentage of the carrier's required work force. If Delta were to pull this trigger first, it could very well leave AA and/or United way up a creek WRT staffing...

 

Because mainlines don't need to buy regionals. The regionals are all fee-for-departure. There is no economic incentive whatsoever for a major to buy any of them.

 

I'd really like to see this line of thinking go away. Granted, there are plenty of tools out there flying RJ's, but the vast majority of guys are just like you and I. They are already flying Delta pax. They are already flying your family when you go on vacation pretty much anywhere. They are already flying internationally, overwater and in big jets that passengers think are mainline jets.

I respect that you are looking out for your own interests, but if a solution to this came along, that happened far below you on the seniority list, would you really oppose it?

Edit: Btw, there are about 5,000ish pilots on the seniority list that Delta didn't interview and hire. In my experience most pilots are more the same than they are different. I don't think you have anything to fear by a "non-Delta hired invasion." I'm willing to bet about 99% of them would be tickled pink to be here.

 

Taking your well thought out post one step further ... the only management can preserve their Endeavor style cost structure is to incentivize pilots with a career. This incentive requires unity to be a binding commitment from management to it's employee.

Further, if management wants to go the route of an ab-initio, MPL, scenario they are going to want to retain the students management just dumper $100,000 into.

ALPA is officially against the MPL solution. However, if ALPA does not sharpen it's pencil that is where the A4A is probably going in their fight against the ATP requirement.

 

Unfortunately, the Pinnacle SSP is proving his line of thinking more correct. Of the senior lifer group, less than 30% were able to make the cut. They are now getting down to the main band of pilots that haven't had the chance to leave yet, so I think the pass rate will jump up. You are correct on the irony that they are already flying Delta pax, but unfortunately a lot of them shouldn't be. I wonder what sort of liability the massive failure rate of the guaranteed interviews exposes us to with those guys going right back and flying Delta pax?

I'm all about a one and done staple job, but it has to be understood that we will get some real doozies to go with it.