Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
10-10-2014, 09:02 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,108
Originally Posted by ImTumbleweed
I would do this:
I would say to the company...
Our union leadership has clearly stated and clearly defined the objectives of this round of contract negotiations. Two of those stated (and published) goals are No reduction in profit sharing and an Increase in W-2's.
I would show that the survey results clearly show this what the pilots want. They won't settle for less.
I would let the company know that under the MEC leadership the union has had "contract roadshows" and warned members to have reserve cash on hand in case a strike vote is required. Family members have been briefed and union members are prepared to do what is required for a "historic" contract.
I would remind the company of the sacrifices the pilots have made in order to contribute to the company's success.
I would remind the company the the union has embraced "constructive engagement", however, that is a two-way street and perhaps it might be time to change the union's methods of negotiation.
I would then, quietly, under my breath, say "Look, almost half the pilots wanted to vote ALPA off the property a while ago. If you don't throw us some bones then ALAP WILL be voted off property. And you probably won't like the new union as much as you like us."
Of course NONE of above is happening...
But I can dream right?
Say hello to C2015:
Split duty periods
Pay banding
Longer training freezes
Increased sick leave scrutiny
Reduction in profit sharing
More large RJs
Increased Reserve utilization
Increase in Line Holder utilization
and.....
wait for it....
4/3/3/3 percent pay increases.
I would say to the company...
Our union leadership has clearly stated and clearly defined the objectives of this round of contract negotiations. Two of those stated (and published) goals are No reduction in profit sharing and an Increase in W-2's.
I would show that the survey results clearly show this what the pilots want. They won't settle for less.
I would let the company know that under the MEC leadership the union has had "contract roadshows" and warned members to have reserve cash on hand in case a strike vote is required. Family members have been briefed and union members are prepared to do what is required for a "historic" contract.
I would remind the company of the sacrifices the pilots have made in order to contribute to the company's success.
I would remind the company the the union has embraced "constructive engagement", however, that is a two-way street and perhaps it might be time to change the union's methods of negotiation.
I would then, quietly, under my breath, say "Look, almost half the pilots wanted to vote ALPA off the property a while ago. If you don't throw us some bones then ALAP WILL be voted off property. And you probably won't like the new union as much as you like us."
Of course NONE of above is happening...
But I can dream right?
Say hello to C2015:
Split duty periods
Pay banding
Longer training freezes
Increased sick leave scrutiny
Reduction in profit sharing
More large RJs
Increased Reserve utilization
Increase in Line Holder utilization
and.....
wait for it....
4/3/3/3 percent pay increases.
10-10-2014, 09:46 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: DAL FO
Posts: 2,154
Originally Posted by gzsg
Since you know him so well go ahead and list 10 major improvements Mike sees in C2015. And make his position public on reducing profit sharing.
IMO you will do nothing of the sort. You will talk in circles and stand for nothing. Mike works behind our backs. He and his inside admin friends think they know better and line pilots just need to be patted on the head.
"Taking risk off the table" will be one of many cram down cost neutral
talking points for the C2015 sell job.
"Taking risk off the table" equals cost neutral.
IMO you will do nothing of the sort. You will talk in circles and stand for nothing. Mike works behind our backs. He and his inside admin friends think they know better and line pilots just need to be patted on the head.
"Taking risk off the table" will be one of many cram down cost neutral
talking points for the C2015 sell job.
"Taking risk off the table" equals cost neutral.
Jerry, you and I have flown together. I enjoyed a 5 day trip with you out of DTW on the 320 probably 5 years ago. I KNOW that you are a great guy to sit next to for an entire trip and I admire your enthusiasm for seeing things improve/return to where this career once was.
All that said, I really think you're getting spun up over the wrong things. I have yet to see anything remotely resembling a planned "cramdown".
The requests for pilot participation are genuine. Everyone involved has high expectations for C2015. Anything else is speculation and paranoia at this stage of the game.
10-10-2014, 09:54 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,524
Originally Posted by Alan Shore
No. It is trading in something that may be worth less than it is today for something that is worth more. It's not a raise, to be sure. It's just changing the variable part of our pay.
The real value to the company in all this IMO is to obfuscate the numbers by combining everything into one impossible to bifurcate huge ball of over cooked spaghetti.
No scope concessions of any kind, some degree of scope recapture at ALL levels is mandatory, and pay raises should stand on their own, and we'll need across the board work rule/QOL increases (hopefully free of embedded concessions or "productivity"). Once we're done with that, we can then look at PS and decide if any "trade" offered is really worth it.
If the company balks at that, and they will, I think it would be because they value the complexity of an overly complicated deal for the sake of itself because their professional negotiating team of lawyers sees specific value in the tactic.
C2015 should stand on its own with PS a side issue. Blowing 2.5B and counting on a one time flash in the pan "return to shareholders" could very likely come back to bite us hard down the road. But as long as they are doing that, and by admission carrying 2.5B in added debt because of is (that much they could have paid off almost immediately resulting in permanant cost reductions) there is zero rationale for reducing profit sharing.
10-10-2014, 09:58 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,524
Originally Posted by ImTumbleweed
I would do this:
I would say to the company...
Our union leadership has clearly stated and clearly defined the objectives of this round of contract negotiations. Two of those stated (and published) goals are No reduction in profit sharing and an Increase in W-2's.
I would show that the survey results clearly show this what the pilots want. They won't settle for less.
I would let the company know that under the MEC leadership the union has had "contract roadshows" and warned members to have reserve cash on hand in case a strike vote is required. Family members have been briefed and union members are prepared to do what is required for a "historic" contract.
I would remind the company of the sacrifices the pilots have made in order to contribute to the company's success.
I would remind the company the the union has embraced "constructive engagement", however, that is a two-way street and perhaps it might be time to change the union's methods of negotiation.
I would then, quietly, under my breath, say "Look, almost half the pilots wanted to vote ALPA off the property a while ago. If you don't throw us some bones then ALAP WILL be voted off property. And you probably won't like the new union as much as you like us."
Of course NONE of above is happening...
But I can dream right?
Say hello to C2015:
Split duty periods
Pay banding
Longer training freezes
Increased sick leave scrutiny
Reduction in profit sharing
More large RJs
Increased Reserve utilization
Increase in Line Holder utilization
and.....
wait for it....
4/3/3/3 percent pay increases.
I would say to the company...
Our union leadership has clearly stated and clearly defined the objectives of this round of contract negotiations. Two of those stated (and published) goals are No reduction in profit sharing and an Increase in W-2's.
I would show that the survey results clearly show this what the pilots want. They won't settle for less.
I would let the company know that under the MEC leadership the union has had "contract roadshows" and warned members to have reserve cash on hand in case a strike vote is required. Family members have been briefed and union members are prepared to do what is required for a "historic" contract.
I would remind the company of the sacrifices the pilots have made in order to contribute to the company's success.
I would remind the company the the union has embraced "constructive engagement", however, that is a two-way street and perhaps it might be time to change the union's methods of negotiation.
I would then, quietly, under my breath, say "Look, almost half the pilots wanted to vote ALPA off the property a while ago. If you don't throw us some bones then ALAP WILL be voted off property. And you probably won't like the new union as much as you like us."
Of course NONE of above is happening...
But I can dream right?
Say hello to C2015:
Split duty periods
Pay banding
Longer training freezes
Increased sick leave scrutiny
Reduction in profit sharing
More large RJs
Increased Reserve utilization
Increase in Line Holder utilization
and.....
wait for it....
4/3/3/3 percent pay increases.
10-10-2014, 10:02 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,108
Originally Posted by LeineLodge
I won't even begin to attempt to speak for Mike. He has made his positions very clear in person, and in writing, both as C44 chairman and in the various committee positions he has held.
Jerry, you and I have flown together. I enjoyed a 5 day trip with you out of DTW on the 320 probably 5 years ago. I KNOW that you are a great guy to sit next to for an entire trip and I admire your enthusiasm for seeing things improve/return to where this career once was.
All that said, I really think you're getting spun up over the wrong things. I have yet to see anything remotely resembling a planned "cramdown".
The requests for pilot participation are genuine. Everyone involved has high expectations for C2015. Anything else is speculation and paranoia at this stage of the game.
Jerry, you and I have flown together. I enjoyed a 5 day trip with you out of DTW on the 320 probably 5 years ago. I KNOW that you are a great guy to sit next to for an entire trip and I admire your enthusiasm for seeing things improve/return to where this career once was.
All that said, I really think you're getting spun up over the wrong things. I have yet to see anything remotely resembling a planned "cramdown".
The requests for pilot participation are genuine. Everyone involved has high expectations for C2015. Anything else is speculation and paranoia at this stage of the game.
Some of the reps have changed, but the admin insiders King fired are all still there.
I recently spoke with a pilot who talked at length with Captain Hanson at an ATL Pub event. Mike was adamant that we MUST further reduce profit sharing.
First off, Pub events are for leaders to LISTEN, not lecture.
Second, what Mike wants doesn't matter. It is what is in the survey that matters.
Why should we expect a different result with the same players?
10-10-2014, 10:46 AM
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Originally Posted by LeineLodge
I won't even begin to attempt to speak for Mike. He has made his positions very clear in person, and in writing, both as C44 chairman and in the various committee positions he has held.
__________________________________________________ _
Captain Donatelli:
I read your most recent Chairman's Letter with interest. Specifically, the following quote intrigued me:
"We intend to negotiate with this company as one united group, bent on achieving the greatest contract in airline history."
I'm sure you realize that our current pay rates are a 34% cut in buying power compared to the buying power we had in 2004 with our C2K rates. To fully restore a 34% cut, it requires a 51% increase. That's the straight math on it. Now, I realize our current contract has some features that make an "apples to apples" comparison to C2K difficult. But bottom line, in order to achieve "the greatest contract in airline history" we are going to need something in the neighborhood of a 50% increase to our W2's.
I guess my question to you is this. Did you really intend to say that? Do you really mean it?
We've spent the past 10 years acting as if we do not expect anything even remotely like what it would take for restoration. Is that changing going forward?
10-10-2014, 10:50 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by gzsg
Since you know him so well go ahead and list 10 major improvements Mike sees in C2015. And make his position public on reducing profit sharing.
IMO you will do nothing of the sort. You will talk in circles and stand for nothing. Mike works behind our backs. He and his inside admin friends think they know better and line pilots just need to be patted on the head.
"Taking risk off the table" will be one of many cram down cost neutral
talking points for the C2015 sell job.
"Taking risk off the table" equals cost neutral.
IMO you will do nothing of the sort. You will talk in circles and stand for nothing. Mike works behind our backs. He and his inside admin friends think they know better and line pilots just need to be patted on the head.
"Taking risk off the table" will be one of many cram down cost neutral
talking points for the C2015 sell job.
"Taking risk off the table" equals cost neutral.
"Cost neutral"... lulz. Saying it so often would be funny if it weren't so sad.
10-10-2014, 10:56 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,108
Originally Posted by tsquare
Leine was right. you are delusional. The thing he left out was that you are a delusional one trick pony.
"Cost neutral"... lulz. Saying it so often would be funny if it weren't so sad.
"Cost neutral"... lulz. Saying it so often would be funny if it weren't so sad.
10-10-2014, 10:59 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by gzsg
Good thing we are getting a 3% hourly increase this year and next during record profits. That, my friend, is top notch negotiating. Or am I making that up?
Try decaf.
I'll bet you shoot a 58 when you are in the clubhouse too.
10-10-2014, 11:01 AM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Originally Posted by LeineLodge
I won't even begin to attempt to speak for Mike. He has made his positions very clear in person, and in writing, both as C44 chairman and in the various committee positions he has held.
Jerry, you and I have flown together. I enjoyed a 5 day trip with you out of DTW on the 320 probably 5 years ago. I KNOW that you are a great guy to sit next to for an entire trip and I admire your enthusiasm for seeing things improve/return to where this career once was.
All that said, I really think you're getting spun up over the wrong things. I have yet to see anything remotely resembling a planned "cramdown".
The requests for pilot participation are genuine. Everyone involved has high expectations for C2015. Anything else is speculation and paranoia at this stage of the game.
Jerry, you and I have flown together. I enjoyed a 5 day trip with you out of DTW on the 320 probably 5 years ago. I KNOW that you are a great guy to sit next to for an entire trip and I admire your enthusiasm for seeing things improve/return to where this career once was.
All that said, I really think you're getting spun up over the wrong things. I have yet to see anything remotely resembling a planned "cramdown".
The requests for pilot participation are genuine. Everyone involved has high expectations for C2015. Anything else is speculation and paranoia at this stage of the game.
If you could share any quotes, either written or spoken, that give specific examples of improvements he seeks I would love to read them...specifics
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