Dude, if you are working for MY union I want you to step into my office, because your freakin' fired.

I'll just start with AMR as an example.

Your single data point BS is not a valid argument on why we are screwed in asking for bumps in payscale.

AMR not only has higher 12yr f/o pay on a few pieces of equipment (which by my book and what they tried to teach me in business school actually means MORE to us as pilots because of the Net Present Value of money earned today and not in 20-25 years when I can hold Intl widebody capt).

Additionally, with work rules and other compensations taken into account, AMR's way ahead of us at the 'World's Biggest Airline'. They continue to have an A and B fund and 401K's (non-matching).

Oh, and they have a 73hr reserve guarantee. And I'm pretty sure their sick policy isn't as poorly conceived and executed as ours is at the moment (just an aside).

I do realize what you are trying to say. But as I stated about 1000 posts ago, we have to stop playing the role of victims. We have the ability as the World's largest pilot group to change the way we do business in negotiations for pay/compensation and work rules. And as you well know, all three of those are really the same thing because that is how the company looks at it...one set of labor costs. We need to focus as a group on our TOTAL compensation package, from lifetime potential earnings to sick leave rules to 401k contributions and reserve work rules. It all counts and it all matters.

SWAPA some time ago figured this out, and the fact that if the pay and premium pays offered allowed the airline to be more efficient and their pilot group to benefit financially from working harder...that was a good thing.

DALPA needs to continue to leverage the fact that we assisted the company in executing the smoothest and largest airline merger in the history of the world. If we can't take this opportunity as a group and execute a respectable contract the industry can look up to in every way, then the profession truly is lost.

I disagree on the negotiation piece. Our mgmt team are savvy negotiators. They realize that with the relative compliance of this group (historically), that the sooner they can negotiate and close in an average economy rather than in a booming economy (2012 and beyond more than likely)...the better off they will be.

Now back to the JAL drama, or lack thereof.

Well, OK, if you're gonna start including National carriers, rather than network ones, let's ALSO not forget:

AirTran: $153/$79
Frontier: $156/$94
JetBlue: $159/$108

Guys, I get it. Our pay is WAY below what it was, and that sucks. In MY opinion, it's way below what is "fair". No argument from me. But there is no such thing as "fair", and the sooner we accept that, the better. We will get in 2012 exactly as much as we can extract, just like we did in C2K and just like we did in Letter 51 in bankruptcy. The economic and political climate at the time will determine what that number is. If conditions are similar to what they were when we negotiated C2K, I'm confident we'll get those wages; but if they aren't, no amount of wishing or thumping of the chest will get us there.

It's time to look forward - not backward. No one forgets what we used to make. No one is any less pained by the current wages. Constantly complaining is really not a very effective strategy and it just leads to a very unsatisfying existence. What IS satisfying, imo, when the boat is taking on water, is to start bailing, rather than sitting around complaining that your shoes are getting wet. But that's just me.

Good question Rhino. I pulled the SWA data from APC where they post it under a heading "Hourly pay rates."

Ok, you are re-hired.

c) is the correct answer.

When we sit down with management to talk about agreements and understandings that are going to be necessary to welcome JAL as the newest member of SkyTeam, we also demand a significant payraise.
Its as simple as that. The company can afford it and we deserve it.

PG,

We need to include all airlines in our analysis. With that being said, I completely agree with your last paragraph. We need to get involved. I know some here are just venting, but many are involved and letting their reps know what's important.

The questions is whether or not the message is getting through to the MEC and based on some recent events, I think it is. Let's start educating the folks about what's involved in the negotiations and stop managing expectations. If we don't ask, we don't get.

Yeah, Comair Academy tried that logic too.

"In business, you don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate"

Our in-house negotiators have failed us, it's time to hire professional negotiators.



12 Yr. Fedex Wide

A- $239/hr.
B- $171/hr.


12 Yr. UPS

A- $244/hr.
B- $169/hr.

I think we have to bring longevity based pay to the table. Like UPS.
Think about what a huge deal it would be for the system vis a vis commuters.

I don't have hard facts but I would wager a guess that it would eliminate 40-50% of our current commuters, if we were able to go to a longevity pay system.

Hey - anyone know if Delta's Premier Sponsorship of the North American Auto Show translates into any benefits for employees at the labor level? Last night Gate Agents in Detroit said they would be working the hospitality area Delta has, so they were getting in for free. They did not know about other deals.

Given the amount of travel to and from that event, it would be neat to have Delta well represented there. The Gate Agents who said they were going were IMHO very good representatives (friendly, personable, knowledgeable).