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Originally Posted by Free Bird
(Post 749739)
This post does an excellent job of pointing out the small percentage of the price of a ticket that the pilots actually cost. There are other cost that need to be factored in. Items such as medical benefits, retirement cost (I think 13-14% now) sick leave etc all add cost to the above equation.
IMO we are worth and deserve more than what we are currently making. Keep in mind logic has nothing to do with our pay, management will keep every penny they can from us. It is after all their job to do so. It's DALPA's job to get every penny they can for us. Just hope DALPA realizes that management won't give us one penny more than what we demand. In my opinion, the fundamental problem in this industry is the way airlines have changed their revenue generating policies. For some reason the airlines think that filling every seat on the plane at any cost is better than having it go out empty. THIS IS WRONG, and ever since this way of thinking was implemented, the airlines have lost money. Imagine if Intel, instead of discarding the processors that don't perform up to spec, decided to sell them at a discount price. Instead of paying $350 for a chip that runs at 2.5 GHz you can buy one out of spec for $100 that runs at 2.0GHz. How long do you think it would be till Intel is bankrupt? The cost of the empty seats should be factored into the cost of the filled seats, this was how revenue was generated during regulation. When you create a secondary market for the same product it causes severe downward pressure on the cost of the original product. Management has no choice but to turn to labor for the savings, where in reality they only have to raise the prices of the seats 1% to turn a profit again. |
If you read the news you know analyst are always "shocked" at any news and especially unemployment number news. But we'll see if in this case the street is right:
Delta Expected to Post Fourth-Quarter Loss Delta Air Lines expected to post fourth-quarter, full-year loss By HARRY R. WEBER AP Airlines Writer The Associated Press ATLANTA Delta Air Lines Inc., the world's biggest airline, reports fourth-quarter and full-year 2009 results on Tuesday. The following is a summary of key developments and analyst opinion related to the period. OVERVIEW: Delta, based in Atlanta, is expected to post an adjusted loss for the October-December quarter. The period includes the holiday travel season that ran from Thanksgiving through Christmas. Weak demand for air travel made for a challenging 2009 for the airline industry, and Delta was no exception. Capacity cuts helped, but profits were still hard to come by as fewer business travelers took to the skies. There have been signs of recovery and improving trends for airlines in recent months. But, they may also face higher costs from rising fuel prices. At an investor conference last month, Delta said it expects to increase its cash balance in 2010 despite more than $1.1 billion in pension expenses and funding requirements planned for 2010. The airline also projects it will end the year with $5.4 billion in unrestricted liquidity, up from the $5.3 billion it expected at the end of 2009. Delta said capacity will be flat in 2010 compared to 2009. The airline recently raised its fees to check a first bag on a domestic flight by $8 and by $7 for a second bag. That means it costs $23 for the first bag and $32 for the second. It will continue to cost you even more if you don't pay the fees in advance on the airline's Web site and wait till you get to the airport. Delta calls it a surcharge — $2 for the first bag and $3 for the second. Elite frequent fliers, first class fliers and certain other customers, including active military personnel on deployment, are exempt from the fees. BY THE NUMBERS: Analysts polled by Thomson Reuters, on average, expect Delta to post a quarterly loss of 24 cents a share on revenue of $6.86 billion. Analysts' projections generally exclude one-time items. The airline posted a net loss of $1.4 billion, or $2.11 a share, in the fourth quarter of 2008 on sales of $6.7 billion. Delta's acquisition of Northwest Airlines was completed in the fourth quarter of 2008. Delta forecast a $1.5 billion net loss for 2009. ANALYST TAKE: Morgan Stanley analyst William Greene said in a Jan. 19 research note that Delta hitting or exceeding its targets for cost savings and revenue enhancement from its combination with Northwest would be a boon for investors. Greene also said Delta has a leaner cost structure than many of the major airlines thanks to the restructuring it and Northwest went through in bankruptcy protection from 2005 to 2007. Delta's significant international/premium travel exposure is a positive in an economic recovery, Greene said. A potential negative, he added, is the risk of unionization across non-unionized work groups. Two of the airline's biggest work groups have not yet resolved representation and seniority integration issues. WHAT'S AHEAD: Delta is waiting to hear whether Japan Airlines will dump its alliance with American Airlines and join Delta's SkyTeam alliance. Delta and its SkyTeam partners would give JAL $1 billion to leave oneworld for SkyTeam. American and its partners have offered $1.4 billion for Japan Airlines to stay. Delta is banking on its global network as a greater lure than the money. There's been no recent word from Japan about when a decision will be made. Japan Airlines recently filed for bankruptcy protection and is planning a major restructuring. STOCK PERFORMANCE: Delta shares rose 40 percent during the fourth quarter. The stock closed at $8.14 on Oct. 1 and ended at $11.38 on Dec.31. |
Originally Posted by Mesabah
(Post 749764)
The problem is slim margins in this business. If the pilots showed up to work for free, the airline would only see a small improvement in the bottom line. However, since there is such a small margin, pay cuts make the difference between a profit and a loss. This is why labor continues to take a beating in this industry.
In my opinion, the fundamental problem in this industry is the way airlines have changed their revenue generating policies. For some reason the airlines think that filling every seat on the plane at any cost is better than having it go out empty. THIS IS WRONG, and ever since this way of thinking was implemented, the airlines have lost money. Imagine if Intel, instead of discarding the processors that don't perform up to spec, decided to sell them at a discount price. Instead of paying $350 for a chip that runs at 2.5 GHz you can buy one out of spec for $100 that runs at 2.0GHz. How long do you think it would be till Intel is bankrupt? The cost of the empty seats should be factored into the cost of the filled seats, this was how revenue was generated during regulation. When you create a secondary market for the same product it causes severe downward pressure on the cost of the original product. Management has no choice but to turn to labor for the savings, where in reality they only have to raise the prices of the seats 1% to turn a profit again. 1. Offer their services for almost nothing to build time 2. Offer their services for far less than required in order to make management happy with them 3. Agree with management that pilot costs are a variable cost as opposed to a fixed cost 4. Agree that management has no other choice Carl |
Originally Posted by FmrFreightDog
(Post 749657)
"The Moon is a Harsh Mistress."
Love Heinlein. |
Alert: Female Suicide Bombers May Be Heading Here From Yemen U.S. Agents Told Women Believed Connected to Al Qaeda May Have Western Appearance and Passports By RICHARD ESPOSITO, RHONDA SCHWARTZ and BRIAN ROSS Jan. 22, 2010 — American law enforcement officials have been told to be on the lookout for female suicide bombers who may attempt to enter the United States, law enforcement authorities tell ABC News. One official said at least two of them are believed to be connected to al Qaeda in Yemen, and may have a non-Arab appearance and be traveling on Western passports. The threat was described as "current" but not imminent, said the official. "They have trained women," said former White House counterterrorism official Richard Clarke, an ABC News consultant. Separately, Britain raised its terrorism threat level to "severe," its second-highest level, days before London hosts major international meetings on how to deal with militancy in Afghanistan and Yemen. Britain's threat level had been labeled "severe" for several years before being lowered last summer to "substantial." American officials say a U.S. air strike on Christmas Eve against suspected al Qaeda training camps is believed to have killed many, but not all, of a group of suicide bombers being trained in Yemen. The man accused of attempting to explode a bomb on Northwest flight 253, Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, told FBI agents there were a number of other people who trained with him in Yemen. "There are others who are still out there who have been trained and who are clean skins -- that means people who we do not have a record of, people who may not look like al Qaeda terrorists, who may not be Arabs, and may not be men," said Clarke. The alert comes during a week in which American law enforcement officials described an "unusually high" number of people on the no-fly list attempting to board flights to or in the United States. Six on No-Fly List Stopped in 48 Hours At least six people on the no-fly list were denied boarding in a 48-hour period between Saturday and Monday this week, according to the officials. Two of the six were stopped at London's Heathrow Airport. On Saturday, an Egyptian man on the no-fly list was stopped from flying on American Airlines flight 113 from London to Miami. The next day, Sunday, a Saudi Arabian passenger was stopped from boarding United Airlines flight 929 to Chicago. Officials said the man was sent back to Saudi Arabia by the British. In two other overseas cases involving people on the no-fly list, a man in Nairobi, Kenya was kept off a flight Sunday that would have connected in Amsterdam to Dallas, and a passenger attempting to fly on American Airlines to Los Angeles was stopped in Saint Maarten before he could board a connecting flight to San Juan, Puerto Rico, according to officials. American officials say there were two additional incidents, in Minneapolis and in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., in which people on the no-fly list were denied boarding, questioned and then allowed to leave the airport without being detained. "What we don't know is whether this is because everyone is doing a better job of enforcing the no-fly list, or because the list has been expanded, or because the terrorists are attempting to probe our security," said ABC News Clarke. A senior U.S. official said the most likely explanation involved the recent expansion of the no-fly list to include more possible terror suspects. At the same time, U.S. law enforcement agencies have quietly begun an intense and widespread effort to investigate any American resident who traveled to Yemen in recent months or who was in contact with the radical cleric Anwar Awlaki, who authorities believe serves as an al Qaeda recruiter. Canadian authorities are also running down leads of any Canadian citizens who have traveled to Yemen, a senior official there said. Awlaki, an American citizen who lives in Yemen, has been connected by authorities to the accused Northwest bomber, the accused shooter at Fort Hood and several other men convicted of terrorist activity in the United States and Canada. As part of the additional scrutiny, federal agents are conducting extensive background checks on every passenger who flew to Detroit on the Northwest flight in case one of them might have been sent as a "spotter" on the mission. Federal agents also tell ABCNews.com they are attempting to identify a man who passengers said helped Abdulmutallab change planes for Detroit when he landed in Amsterdam from Lagos, Nigeria. Authorities had initially discounted the passenger accounts, but the agents say there is a growing belief the man have played a role to make sure Abdulmutallab "did not get cold feet." |
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
(Post 749770)
Authorities had initially discounted the passenger accounts, but the agents say there is a growing belief the man have played a role to make sure Abdulmutallab "did not get cold feet." |
Originally Posted by Free Bird
(Post 749739)
This post does an excellent job of pointing out the small percentage of the price of a ticket that the pilots actually cost. There are other cost that need to be factored in. Items such as medical benefits, retirement cost (I think 13-14% now) sick leave etc all add cost to the above equation.
IMO we are worth and deserve more than what we are currently making. Keep in mind logic has nothing to do with our pay, management will keep every penny they can from us. It is after all their job to do so. It's DALPA's job to get every penny they can for us. Just hope DALPA realizes that management won't give us one penny more than what we demand. As far as the "pittance" it would take to raise our salary 100k, do you guys read the paper? Do you actually think you will get Joe and Betty sixpack to pay more for an airline ticket so you can get a raise of $100,000? Be real. There is an effective rate of unemployment of 17% in this country. Our revenues are down 10-20% across the board and more in some markets. The fact that we have not furloughed through this downturn is unprecedented. I think DALPA deserves a modicum of credit for that. Before Carl starts calling me a girl with a grass skirt for not demanding that we stomp our feet and taxi at a slow walk to force the company to pay him, I say to what end? So you can get $300 an hour and I can get furloughed? So I can pay an assessment on my dues for years while you ride off into the proverbial sunset with your retirement intact? No way buddy. I don't want to be paid the most, I want to be paid the longest. You want to help this pilot group? Raise the bottom 2 year pay rates by 10% and gradually reduce the raise as you go up the ladder. That would be worth far more in the long run than raising across the board or raising the WB rate. Time value of money... The former retirement plans based on last three year earnings have skewed the pay rates negatively for our present system. With a DC it is far better to raise the beginning years rather than the later years. We could phase in the change to minimize the impact on the top enders. For the long run and guys like FTB, Super, Beer, and the rest of the wunderkinder, we need to change our entire philosophy of compensation. Kudos to our union for reading the tea leaves of the current world and market place and taking a non confrontational business oriented stance. Now lets change our focus from the short term to the long term. |
Originally Posted by NERD
(Post 749757)
Carl,
Don't be so thin skinned. I was not trying to demean anyone, just telling the truth. There was no action by the WB pilots. It was the 9 and 320 crews(the bulk of our domestic operation) that were being abused so much that they had a meltdown. Again, I was on the whale and the big improvements that we rcvd in this timeframe(thanks to GB) were free internet in NRT, free gym in NRT and 30%off at the sportsbar. I can't remember the last time I had a nice crew meal.... :rolleyes: New K <===== Using this opportunity to complain about the high price of food at the airports, especially DTW & MSP. :mad: |
Originally Posted by satchip
(Post 749774)
No, management won't give us one penny more that what the market dictates. DALPA can demand all they want but that doesn't change the marketplace. No one can say we are payed below market rates. I didn't say what we think we are worth but what the market says we are worth. One can argue that there are certain carriers that are paying below market rates. Whether true or not those rates tend to depress our market value.
As far as the "pittance" it would take to raise our salary 100k, do you guys read the paper? Do you actually think you will get Joe and Betty sixpack to pay more for an airline ticket so you can get a raise of $100,000? Be real. There is an effective rate of unemployment of 17% in this country. Our revenues are down 10-20% across the board and more in some markets. The fact that we have not furloughed through this downturn is unprecedented. I think DALPA deserves a modicum of credit for that. Before Carl starts calling me a girl with a grass skirt for not demanding that we stomp our feet and taxi at a slow walk to force the company to pay him, I say to what end? So you can get $300 an hour and I can get furloughed? So I can pay an assessment on my dues for years while you ride off into the proverbial sunset with your retirement intact? No way buddy. I don't want to be paid the most, I want to be paid the longest. You want to help this pilot group? Raise the bottom 2 year pay rates by 10% and gradually reduce the raise as you go up the ladder. That would be worth far more in the long run than raising across the board or raising the WB rate. Time value of money... The former retirement plans based on last three year earnings have skewed the pay rates negatively for our present system. With a DC it is far better to raise the beginning years rather than the later years. We could phase in the change to minimize the impact on the top enders. For the long run and guys like FTB, Super, Beer, and the rest of the wunderkinder, we need to change our entire philosophy of compensation. Kudos to our union for reading the tea leaves of the current world and market place and taking a non confrontational business oriented stance. Now lets change our focus from the short term to the long term. Carl |
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
(Post 749770)
Alert: Female Suicide Bombers May Be Heading Here From Yemen U.S. Agents Told Women Believed Connected to Al Qaeda May Have Western Appearance and Passports By RICHARD ESPOSITO, RHONDA SCHWARTZ and BRIAN ROSS Jan. 22, 2010 — American law enforcement officials have been told to be on the lookout for female suicide bombers who may attempt to enter the United States, law enforcement authorities tell ABC News. One official said at least two of them are believed to be connected to al Qaeda in Yemen, and may have a non-Arab appearance and be traveling on Western passports. The threat was described as "current" but not imminent, said the official. "They have trained women," said former White House counterterrorism official Richard Clarke, an ABC News consultant. Excuse me? What the hell does that mean? How can a threat be current but not imminent? Sounds like double speak to me when we need to be hearing it straight. |
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