Originally Posted by blue vortex (Post 789663)

I think they apparently got the number of lines in the MSP MD-88 and DC-9 mistakenly switched. MSP DC-9 hours are about the same as April.

Originally Posted by blue vortex (Post 789673)

In the bid packet they give number of trips and average trip length. Numbers were similar for April and May.

Originally Posted by Waves (Post 789655)

Contract 2012 is just around the corner. If this management team is anything like their predecessors, here are a few things to remember. There is no free lunch. Management assigns value to anything that is perceived to be a positive for the pilot group. Not some, but all positive things, whether it is scope, NFC, more pay, time off, better benefits, etc will be considered to have value. Some of you may not agree with this or like it, but that is the way it works. DALPA works with those parameters, but the perceived cost of each item is where the differences show up at the negotiating table. Sometimes management even turns a negative concession into a positive, i.e. when we gave them the “Vacation Bank.” The change to our vacation was probably the biggest concession we ever gave them. I’m sure some remember this, but basically we used to bid for our vacations and any touching trips were dropped with pay. This meant that a pilot could very often get an entire month off with pay for just one week of vacation. Now multiply that times 6 or 7 weeks of vacation per year and you quickly get the picture. Senior Bubbas were only flying about half the year and so on. I don’t remember what the exact numbers were; but that little give back singlehandedly reduced the pilot workforce by a huge amount. What we got for its replacement was the Vacation Bank as we know it today. Admittedly, the previous method was a bit grandiose, but it was still a huge concession. How the company tried to make it look like a positive is when the unused vacation bank payout rolled around in April, they didn’t want to pay us. They said it was going to cost them too much money. R U KIDDING ME? We had just saved the company millions of $ and they were acting like they had done us a huge favor. They eventually paid us. By the way, I voted “NO” for that contract as well. I could give several more examples, but me thinks you gets it. Later, Waves

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 789674)

Like most concessions the vacation actually evolved over several contracts. We started out with touching trips dropped on all vacations with all days on trips that touched vacation paid on the primary and secondary. Tertiary and Quatenary only days within the vacation were paid. We then went to a system where you got a max of 12 days paid that fell outside the vacations on touching trips. This was to counter the 10 and 12 day trips we were flying to the Orient and Europe in the early 90's. Then we went to a hour bank and the value of the vacation day decreased in the 1113 process. To put it all into perspective if we went back to the original system a bid would have to be posted for about 900 Captains.
We also once paid Greenslips as double credit and pay. Fly a 4 day greenslip and you normally ended up having to drop two trips!
We have lost far more jobs to work rules then RJ's.

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar (Post 789439)

Good points, although I disagree with your contention that they cost much to get, especially in modern bargaining which ALPA uses to facilitate management's outsourcing schemes. They serve as a cheap insurance policy (with a fly by night underwriter) in order to execute a sale of our member's jobs.

No furlough clauses are most often tied to agreements which loosen scope. Politically "no furlough" clauses provide cover for the sale of junior pilots jobs and upgrade potential. When junior pilots complain, they receive assurances that their job is still protected. Based on these happy talk promises, the sheeple vote yes with a clear conscience.

As you well point out (and as Sailing concurs) these job protection devices often are not designed for economic stresses and they commonly fail. While at the time they are sold as "job protection" when they fail, the tune changes to the need to help management load shed when the company is under duress. Just as we hear "our scope works by not working" (my former Rep's quote in response to a question on the Compass flow down).

So, I'd only disagree with you on a minor point. No Furlough Clauses cost nothing, are worth about as much and come in a bottle labeled "political eyewash."

I agree with Sailing that our approach to layered economic penalties is smart and more effective than blanket assurances.

In light of the trend data, our MEC did likely save folks like me a furlough (which would have looked bad given their support for the merger). I appreciate their work.

IMHO Job Protection should focus on scope. Since the jets currently flown by Compass and Republic would have little trouble replacing your 737 (I even see them carrying more than 100 folks out of UIO) I'd encourage you to join our merry minority of scope fanatics intent on keeping our jobs and careers.

Originally Posted by enuff (Post 789467)

Well for all of us DTW 75 guys the nightmare has begun. What was once a great category, doing great trips has been ruined by our friends at Mecca south. Thanks Delta for the horrendous May trips and for converting DTW to a satellite base for ATL, with it's inadequate facilities, over saturation and lousy spring and summer weather........ can't wait.

Originally Posted by alfaromeo (Post 789693)

Vacation bank in and of itself is not a concession, it all depends upon the value of each vacation day. Vacation bank is more of a leveling mechanism within the pilot group. With trips touching, the very senior pilots in category could get a lot of value for their vacation by having lots of time dropped. Junior lineholders and reserves had their vacations get a lot less value.

Once I was a junior lineholder and I couldn't touch one trip to my vacation. Other times when I was senior in category, I made a one week vacation into almost an entire month off. In vacation bank, everyone gets the same value from their vacation. This is just a priority issue for the MEC, how do the benefits from the contract get spread around amongst the pilots. No real right or wrong answer here, just different philosophies.

If you make the vacation bank days worth more than the average amount of time that was dropped under trips touching, then you get a gain. As you vary the time each day is worth it can go to neutral and then concessionary. The bank itself is not a concession. When evaluating whether or not contract changes are gains, neutral, or concessionary, you have to evaluate the net effect upon the entire pilot group.

The vacation sell back is an example. A guy who wanted to sell back his vacation and get extra cash would call the loss of sell back a concession. The guy who moves up a seat because the company now needs more pilots because they are actually using their vacation thinks the loss of sell back is a contract gain.

Originally Posted by Superpilot92 (Post 789701)

*Financials are looking good for 2010. Barring unforeseen difficulties should be profitable.


*Number one priority is using free cash to pay down debt.


*Aircraft on hand and in desert will provide ASM’s for next 2-3 years without need for significant capital expenditure on new aircraft. New aircraft deliveries include 2 -777’s this year, continued delivery of MD-90’s. Return aircraft from desert as needed.

*Planning for fuel expense for year at $86/barrel


*Increase seats in MD-90 to 160, MD-88 to 150, A-319 to 130.


*Overwater kit all A-319’s


*Any aircraft that can get winglets will be retrofitted.


*No progress in 787 acquisition talks with Boeing


*No 100 seat replacement on horizon. (Too large a capital expense for “old technology” aircraft)


*Increase Texas flying to replace feed lost when Continental left Sky Team.


*MEM and DTW are the hubs responding best to merged network. MEM costs remain low and complement ATL flow.


*Reduction of 130 RJ’s in next 2-3 years. Reduce multiple RJ frequencies with fewer but larger gauge mainline flights. Example was BHM reducing from 9 RJ’s to 6 mainline.

*RJ’s- Numbers continue to decrease. May 2009 DCI operated 718 aircraft. In Feb. 2010 - 705 aircraft.


*The Company may not add more 76 seat aircraft until the mainline fleet exceeds 767 aircraft. Current mainline fleet is below 767.


*The Company can operate a total of 255 70/76 seat aircraft. Currently operating 219 70/76 aircraft.


*Alitalia probable addition to AF/KLM Joint Venture. Delta is pursuing China Eastern to join Sky Team.

Originally Posted by keenster (Post 789707)

Get used to it. Seems what ever and whenever they get around to it, the new great rotations and schedule construction pretty much stinks!!!!:( QOL has really gone down hill dude. We really had good schedules got that: HAD. Welcome to the new Delta.:eek: And by the way just to warn you, you are to small of a sub group to worrry about.