Originally Posted by KC10 FATboy

There are airlines that do already provide rooms before crews start rotations. We might have to realize that this might become the cost of doing business. And as such, commuting might become a thing of the past because I certainly don't many companies providing rooms because someone commutes.

CHANGED: Additionally, the FAA could put forth language such as "A pilot must have 8 hours of uninterupted crew rest within the 12 hours before start of a rotation/flight segment". Since the FAA is requiring you the pilot and not the company, I could see this being a way of them getting their crew rest while not forcing undue costs onto the company.

Additionally, I think we all should be intellectually honest with ourselves and realize the vast differences between someone getting a good nights rest at home and driving to work, compared to someone sleeping on the red-eye or in the crew lounge (which is what they're trying to prevent).

Originally Posted by Howgozit

5 days are usually commutable on both ends, 3 and 4 days are not. You will get more time off with your family if you fly longer trips and no $50 hotel rooms.

Originally Posted by Waves

I once had a Captain try to convince me that a “National Seniority List” was something we should all strive for. I thought he was absolutely insane. I still have major reservations about such a list. There are too many differences in hiring criteria to placate my agreement on the subject. What say you?

Originally Posted by newKnow

On second thought, maybe not.



Even if we worked for free, what does that have to do with your argument?




Yeah, right. I can hear Ferd and Carl laughing right now.....

Originally Posted by slowplay

Personally I'd rather go to work with KC10 and PG than some of the Quixotic posers I see type here (not you clmp). The first step to success is knowing where you are. They do. A lot of people here seem to know where they want to go, but don't have a clue of where they're starting from....makes for a longer, more difficulty journey with a lower probability of completion!

I shall now bow to the cone of shame...

Originally Posted by alfaromeo

So, we now determine the total budget for the pilots. Management wants a small budget and we want a large budget. The size of that budget will be determined by several factors:

How about start with the total cost associated with replacing all 12,00 + pilots on the list minus "one dollar" as Randolph and Mortimer Duke so aptly put it. Then adjust from there.


You can't just vote no and then have that number go higher. In fact in the last few years, everyone that has voted no has had to eat a smaller number in the end.

Again. Not a true statement. Please reference Hawaiian's Chp. 11 agreement that was voted down, sent back, and improved with better results than DL's in the face of 1113.


The merger equity is probably now worth about $50K + per pilot

Really? You need to show your work on that or it becomes a WA
L.

Frankly, we accomplished all of those goals and ended up with the best contract of all the Ch 11 carriers.

Not a true statement. Look at Hawaiian's 1113 contract. It was better.

Originally Posted by GunshipGuy

"Commuting is a choice" is an argumentative statement that can not be discussed honestly without accepting the fact everything in life where either action or inaction is required is a choice. Of course it's a choice, but the fallacy in stating it as an unequivocal truth only leads to frustration on the part of those who have to commute when in fact they'd rather not. They could choose to not commute, but in doing so they may be choosing to declare bankruptcy as well, or stress their marriage to the point where divorce could become a reality, or a whole host of undesirable situations that would come with making a decision to not commute.

So, please, do the readers of this thread a favor, and forgo the declarative statement that only leads to what amounts to a school yard fight of "it is too!" versus "Not-uhh!"

Originally Posted by DAL73n

Really, what makes 5 day trips by definition any more commutable than 3 or 4 day trips. Even with 5 day trips you need at least 3 trips a month to fill up. With proper 4 day trips I can have only 12 days of work, 9 nights in a hotel and the rest in my own bed. 5 day trips doesn't make that any better AND if only 1 of the 5 day trips is non-commutable on either end (maybe both) then you can end up (as the junior guy stuck with it) with 7 days away. Also, it will be next to impossible to get rid of a 5 day trip if you don't like it, want to get rid of something to be home for that you couldn't bid around, etc. etc.

Originally Posted by alfaromeo

You guys could all have a discussion without the rancor and "holier than thou" attitudes if you think of these issues as a two step process. Negotiations actually accomplish both tasks simultaneously, but for argument's sake consider it as two distinct steps.

The first step is to determine the total budget allocated to the Delta pilot contract. One reason that I keep trying to get people to quit this endless political jockeying is that pilot unity is the only leverage that any negotiating committee has to wield at the table. That is why when I see people trying to whip up disunity in favor of their short term political power grabs, it makes me sick. Every time these stunts occur, it only takes power away from the negotiators and the MEC.

So, we now determine the total budget for the pilots. Management wants a small budget and we want a large budget. The size of that budget will be determined by several factors:

Competitive contracts throughout the industry (pattern bargaining)
Profitability of the company (yes it really matters, no matter how much anyone tries to delude themselves)
Pilot unity and organization

Despite the webboard wisdom, the size of the budget will not be affected by:

The size of the testicles of the MEC
Voting no, saying no, thinking no, being tough, toughness, courage, etc.

This is a business transaction, that is how the company views it, that is how the NMB views it and if you want to play in the universe of emotional outbursts (see APA) then you WILL get your clock cleaned. Badly.

So now we have gauged the economic environment and we have determined the pilot budget. Again, we try to make it as large as possible but in the end it will be a FIXED NUMBER. That is just reality. You can't just vote no and then have that number go higher. In fact in the last few years, everyone that has voted no has had to eat a smaller number in the end. The conventional wisdom of vote no and it gets better is almost always proven to be 180 out of the reality of the situation. As long as both sides make rational business evaluations of the negotiating environment, then the budget is actually bracketed into a very narrow range from the minute you start negotiations. That is also a fact that cannot be abridged by emotional arguments.

Now we have the budget. How are we going to spend that budget? During the last few years the Delta MEC has had less money in their budget, like everyone else. Having your company go bankrupt does that sort of thing. Facing this budget cutback, they decided to spend their budget this way:

Preserve work rules and the 12-14 day work month
1 for 3.5 was critical
ALV midrange was 77 which equates to a very reasonable initial load on schedules
Vacation should still be vacation and not a cash cow to sell back
The reserve system was not designed to be "commutable" so it is not a failure that the system is not commutable

Eliminate paid time for pilots sitting at home
This is where the 23K came from
The reserve system is specifically designed to minimize reserve guarantee paid - if you hit 67 hours each month then the system is doing what it was designed to do

Keep pay rates high
That is the traditional #1 goal for Delta pilots and unless things have changed a lot recently, it still is

Leverage equity from the company to provide compensation that does not come out of the P+L statement
Our bankruptcy claim netted Delta pilots $1.2 billion
The merger equity is probably now worth about $50K + per pilot

Frankly, we accomplished all of those goals and ended up with the best contract of all the Ch 11 carriers. (sorry north guys, but it was about $100 mm per year to bring you guys up to our contract, that is just a fact). Those priorities have set us up to continue to rebuild our contract like no other carrier has over the last three years. You can admire the bluster of UAL or AMR pilots but they have produced a goose egg over the last few years. At some points results have to matter.

Our next contract should contain a higher budget for Delta pilots. Inside of that budget the pilots through the MEC will decide how to spend that budget. If 23K recovery is too onerous, then they can spend money to let first officers sit at home with full pay. If commuters want reserve to be "commutable" then the MEC can spend money on that. If pilots want to let senior pilots on reserve sit at home and pass the pain on down the line, then they can spend money on that. If pilots want to move their pay rates higher then they can retain the productivity improvements of the last few years and put more money in pay.

There are no right or wrong answers here, there is just each pilots opinions of where the budget should be spent. It is not weakness to want higher pay rates and it is not stupid to want more time off. These are just individual preferences. You can call each other names all you want, but in the end, the pilots will express their preferences through the MEC and the MEC will develop a consensus on how to spend that budget.

If you can first get your head around the concept that the budget will be a fixed amount, then you can concentrate on deciding your priorities on how to spend that budget and avoid the emotional name calling that so often accompanies these discussions. Or, you can call each other names which is always very productive. By the way, you all stink.