Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
10-13-2010 | 02:09 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,601
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From: Dismayed
I am not sticking for any vision. You have got to stop blaming ALPA for all that ails this pilot group, because it is just not accurate. ALPA national has little to no control over what goes on at the local level, they offer resources and guidance. Sometimes their guidance is wrong, but it is up to each pilot group to make that decision, ALPA does not do it for you.
Delta pilots voted for every single scope concession that has taken place, ALPA did not force any of it. Lee Moak did not make those decisions for you. One of the first things I learned when I was an ALPA rep for my regional, is that you can say no to ALPA and they must abide by your decision. The national officers are not running the show, your pilot group is.
I want to get rid of all the RJ's just like you, but ALPA cannot do it for us, we must impose our will on our negotiators to get what we want. And if they bring us back something that we don't like, then we vote NO!
It really is that simple.
Delta pilots voted for every single scope concession that has taken place, ALPA did not force any of it. Lee Moak did not make those decisions for you. One of the first things I learned when I was an ALPA rep for my regional, is that you can say no to ALPA and they must abide by your decision. The national officers are not running the show, your pilot group is.
I want to get rid of all the RJ's just like you, but ALPA cannot do it for us, we must impose our will on our negotiators to get what we want. And if they bring us back something that we don't like, then we vote NO!
It really is that simple.
If ALPA is representing both sides in the scope negotiations, then who gets screwed? Does the ALPA Pres get behind those that pay the dues or those that have the electoral votes to keep him in his very cushy lifestyle?
10-13-2010 | 02:10 PM
Line Holder
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 523
Likes: 9
In a clearly misguided and overly optimistic moment, I just checked the Crew Resources page to see if any NOV bids were out in order to see which godforsaken city I would be spending my Thanksgiving....not surprisingly, it's a little early for that. However, in the same space where the links to the monthly bids are, theres a link for "Pilot CQ Bidding". I like to think that I stay fairly tuned in, but I don't recall ever being asked to bid for CQ and there are an awful lot of names on the list for that link....and mine's not one of them. Does anyone know what this is referring to and did I miss something important. (FWIW, I'm PMDL with a 2010 base month of SEP for CQ and I had it in AUG)
10-13-2010 | 02:12 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,601
Likes: 0
From: Dismayed
In a clearly misguided and overly optimistic moment, I just checked the Crew Resources page to see if any NOV bids were out in order to see which godforsaken city I would be spending my Thanksgiving....not surprisingly, it's a little early for that. However, in the same space where the links to the monthly bids are, theres a link for "Pilot CQ Bidding". I like to think that I stay fairly tuned in, but I don't recall ever being asked to bid for CQ and there are an awful lot of names on the list for that link....and mine's not one of them. Does anyone know what this is referring to and did I miss something important. (FWIW, I'm PMDL with a 2010 base month of SEP for CQ and I had it in AUG)
10-13-2010 | 02:12 PM
Moderator
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,263
Likes: 105
From: DAL 330
JEDI Master: "These are not the aircraft that you want."
RJ Lifer: "These are not the aircraft that we want."
JEDI Master: "You want less RJs than you now have."
RJ Lifer: "We want less RJs than we already have."
Know all we need is a JEDI master.
Scoop
10-13-2010 | 02:16 PM
Moderator
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,263
Likes: 105
From: DAL 330
In a clearly misguided and overly optimistic moment, I just checked the Crew Resources page to see if any NOV bids were out in order to see which godforsaken city I would be spending my Thanksgiving....not surprisingly, it's a little early for that. However, in the same space where the links to the monthly bids are, theres a link for "Pilot CQ Bidding". I like to think that I stay fairly tuned in, but I don't recall ever being asked to bid for CQ and there are an awful lot of names on the list for that link....and mine's not one of them. Does anyone know what this is referring to and did I miss something important. (FWIW, I'm PMDL with a 2010 base month of SEP for CQ and I had it in AUG)
Scoop
10-13-2010 | 02:19 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,105
Likes: 100
I say we go with the Jedi Mind trick - Here is how it might go with the JEDI Master "tricking" a RJ Lifer about 76 and 90 seaters.
JEDI Master: "These are not the aircraft that you want."
RJ Lifer: "These are not the aircraft that we want."
JEDI Master: "You want less RJs than you now have."
RJ Lifer: "We want less RJs than we already have."
Know all we need is a JEDI master.
Scoop
JEDI Master: "These are not the aircraft that you want."
RJ Lifer: "These are not the aircraft that we want."
JEDI Master: "You want less RJs than you now have."
RJ Lifer: "We want less RJs than we already have."
Know all we need is a JEDI master.
Scoop
JEDI Master: "These are not the aircraft/jobs that you want."
DAL/NWA Negotiator: "These are not the aircraft/jobs that we want."
JEDI Master: "You want less pay than you now have."
DAL/NWA Negotiator: "We want less pay than we already have."
6 Monts from Then:
JEDI Master: "This was not what the langauge meant...it means more RJs."
DAL/NWA Negotiator: "This was not what the langauge meant...it means more RJs."
JEDI Master: "You think that a No Furlough Clause means something".
DAL/NWA Negotiator: "I think that a No Furlough Clause means something"
Which one actually happened?
Nu
10-13-2010 | 02:22 PM
Line Holder
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 523
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Thanks to both of you for the quick responses....I will now return to my previous state of blissful obliviousness.
10-13-2010 | 02:23 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,919
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Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't each PILOT group vote on every scope relief decision. I believe there is not one single instance of ALPA forcing any pilot group into relieving scope to benefit a regional pilot group, is there.
Stop blaming ALPA for the votes of the majority on each property. Regardless of whatever the new prez writes, he does not decide scope relief or restoration on ANY ALPA property.
We all need to look in the mirror to solve this problem. The best thing for mainline pilots and regional pilots alike is to get rid of as many RJ's as possible. The only way to do that is to realize that WE, as in mainline pilots, are the ones who gave that flying away to begin with.
Stop blaming ALPA for the votes of the majority on each property. Regardless of whatever the new prez writes, he does not decide scope relief or restoration on ANY ALPA property.
We all need to look in the mirror to solve this problem. The best thing for mainline pilots and regional pilots alike is to get rid of as many RJ's as possible. The only way to do that is to realize that WE, as in mainline pilots, are the ones who gave that flying away to begin with.
However, the decision NOT to relax scope never came from ALPA National either.
Personally, I feel as though ALPA National should have made some basic, concrete guidelines a long time ago. One of these basic concrete guidelines should have been scope plain and simple. The entire discussion of an individual pilot group considering to relax scope in exchange for a pay raise should not even be open for discussion period.
Therein lies the problem with ALPA, ALPA National will take dues from any pilot group without question. ALPA National seems to run more like a business looking out for their own self interests as opposed to an organized labor group looking out for it's members.
ALPA National doesn't seem to give that much guidance to it's pilot groups, instead they allow each group to vote on any piece of regurgitated contract proposal kicked down from management.
ALPA serves under the guise of unity with strength in numbers, but ALPA National will sit by idly while one ALPA group is allowed to whipsaw another ALPA pilot group. While I am not saying ALPA National should be voting on our contract, I do believe that ALPA National needs some backbone principles to stand on that are not negotiable. If a pilot group decided to try and vote below or against these principles, ALPA National should reject that pilot group as a whole.
But then again...ALPA National was never one to turn down money or members.
10-13-2010 | 02:44 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 12,078
Likes: 15
From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
I agree that the decision to relax scope was voted on by each specific mainline pilot group and never came from ALPA National.
However, the decision NOT to relax scope never came from ALPA National either.
Personally, I feel as though ALPA National should have made some basic, concrete guidelines a long time ago. One of these basic concrete guidelines should have been scope plain and simple. The entire discussion of an individual pilot group considering to relax scope in exchange for a pay raise should not even be open for discussion period.
Therein lies the problem with ALPA, ALPA National will take dues from any pilot group without question. ALPA National seems to run more like a business looking out for their own self interests as opposed to an organized labor group looking out for it's members.
ALPA National doesn't seem to give that much guidance to it's pilot groups, instead they allow each group to vote on any piece of regurgitated contract proposal kicked down from management.
ALPA serves under the guise of unity with strength in numbers, but ALPA National will sit by idly while one ALPA group is allowed to whipsaw another ALPA pilot group. While I am not saying ALPA National should be voting on our contract, I do believe that ALPA National needs some backbone principles to stand on that are not negotiable. If a pilot group decided to try and vote below or against these principles, ALPA National should reject that pilot group as a whole.
But then again...ALPA National was never one to turn down money or members.
However, the decision NOT to relax scope never came from ALPA National either.
Personally, I feel as though ALPA National should have made some basic, concrete guidelines a long time ago. One of these basic concrete guidelines should have been scope plain and simple. The entire discussion of an individual pilot group considering to relax scope in exchange for a pay raise should not even be open for discussion period.
Therein lies the problem with ALPA, ALPA National will take dues from any pilot group without question. ALPA National seems to run more like a business looking out for their own self interests as opposed to an organized labor group looking out for it's members.
ALPA National doesn't seem to give that much guidance to it's pilot groups, instead they allow each group to vote on any piece of regurgitated contract proposal kicked down from management.
ALPA serves under the guise of unity with strength in numbers, but ALPA National will sit by idly while one ALPA group is allowed to whipsaw another ALPA pilot group. While I am not saying ALPA National should be voting on our contract, I do believe that ALPA National needs some backbone principles to stand on that are not negotiable. If a pilot group decided to try and vote below or against these principles, ALPA National should reject that pilot group as a whole.
But then again...ALPA National was never one to turn down money or members.
10-13-2010 | 02:46 PM
Happy to be here
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18,563
Likes: 0
From: A-320A
While I'm not saying you're wrong, ALPA did the negotiating and then the sales job during the road shows to get folks to vote on the contract. If you factor in that most pilots at Delta vote yes because they either trust their union or can't be bothered enough to read/question things, then the logical conclusion is that ALPA knows that the membership will ratify whatever they are told to ratify.
If ALPA is representing both sides in the scope negotiations, then who gets screwed? Does the ALPA Pres get behind those that pay the dues or those that have the electoral votes to keep him in his very cushy lifestyle?
If ALPA is representing both sides in the scope negotiations, then who gets screwed? Does the ALPA Pres get behind those that pay the dues or those that have the electoral votes to keep him in his very cushy lifestyle?
Lets remember that it was previous reps and our MEC's that did the sales jobs. I do not recall guys from National coming down to do that.
Added, there is no way in heck that Lee will not sign the DAL PWA. More than likely he will either be on a second term or gone before ours is up for signature. (Assuming more than a year at the table)
Superdad is correct.
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