Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
10-18-2010 | 09:25 AM
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From: A-320A
It may be crazy to you, but experience that others have had proves that the details of normal meeting make it to variety of sources, why give the opportunity of a tape of these events as well.
10-18-2010 | 09:46 AM
Back on TDY
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From: 747-400 Captain
Interesting. I'd be curious to see the number of cards sent in so far.
All that sounds great. The transfer of representation is what concerns me the most though. If done poorly, this could have a decimating effect on, not only Delta pilots, but all union pilots (as this would effectively kill alpa-or at least turn it into an RJ only union as United would surely follow us out the door)
I'm really on the fence about whether to send in the card or not. What's the peanut gallery thinking? And why?
Are there any DPA meetings scheduled? I'd like to see some more of this before I fall on the wrong side of the fence.
All that sounds great. The transfer of representation is what concerns me the most though. If done poorly, this could have a decimating effect on, not only Delta pilots, but all union pilots (as this would effectively kill alpa-or at least turn it into an RJ only union as United would surely follow us out the door)
I'm really on the fence about whether to send in the card or not. What's the peanut gallery thinking? And why?
Are there any DPA meetings scheduled? I'd like to see some more of this before I fall on the wrong side of the fence.
My only bit of advice: People with hugely complex explanations as to why something simple and logical cannot be done, are BS'ing you.
Carl
10-18-2010 | 09:57 AM
Gets Weekends Off
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From: 717
Lets say that someone slanders the company (any company), states that they are an unsafe operation, badmouths the CEO, CFO, SVP, EVP etc. This all goes against the Social Media policy that Delta and other corporations have set. Then if someone takes this meeting video and posts it to You Tube and it is there for the public to see. (Even if it cannot be posted someone can take a video of the monitor and post it)
As a result the corporation takes action, and said person is not in trouble with their employer for comments made at a LEC meeting.
Do not think this is crazy. We have had people post other things to You Tube as well. Find a way to make sure that the receiving end of every user that signs on this way is secure and you deal with the problem. This is the one reason it is not happening. It is not specific to Delta. There are plenty of other ALPA pilots working for other carriers that have been fired for just speaking their mind in crew room meetings. (No I am not kidding) Now to have a tape of these comments that can be stored, not good at all imo.
I too would love to have all of the meetings played live with a service like "Go to Meetings," voting from your home etc, but as I stated we need to deal with the end user security. Most corporations know the level of security on both ends, we do not.
Do not think this is crazy. We have had people post other things to You Tube as well. Find a way to make sure that the receiving end of every user that signs on this way is secure and you deal with the problem. This is the one reason it is not happening. It is not specific to Delta. There are plenty of other ALPA pilots working for other carriers that have been fired for just speaking their mind in crew room meetings. (No I am not kidding) Now to have a tape of these comments that can be stored, not good at all imo.
I too would love to have all of the meetings played live with a service like "Go to Meetings," voting from your home etc, but as I stated we need to deal with the end user security. Most corporations know the level of security on both ends, we do not.
10-18-2010 | 10:09 AM
The Brown Dot +1
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From: 777B
So you are saying that the Company forbids this type of communication?
You mean that I can slander someone at the company while attending an LEC meeting and can't get in trouble? You said that people have gotten fired for speaking their mind in a crew room, how is that different than at an LEC meeting? When and where did this happen that someone got fired for speaking their mind in the crew room? Some details would be nice otherwise it sounds like a directive to shut us up.
You mean that I can slander someone at the company while attending an LEC meeting and can't get in trouble? You said that people have gotten fired for speaking their mind in a crew room, how is that different than at an LEC meeting? When and where did this happen that someone got fired for speaking their mind in the crew room? Some details would be nice otherwise it sounds like a directive to shut us up.
As a starting point to understand what ACL is trying to say, take a minute or 5 to read the introductory page to the DALPA forum. This came about as a result of some pilots being accused and then being taken to court by the company for "concerted illegal action" or something like that.
Then go to the Deltanet and read the Delta social media policy (middle right of the page I think).
However, I do not think either of these is a showstopper for having online union meetings with feedback. The union meetings would just have to fit within the framework of the two above policies which could be done by having the meeting proctered.
10-18-2010 | 10:14 AM
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From: A-320A
The difference is that there were company officers in the crew room meeting. Go talk to AirTran guys about this one. I know two that were fired for venting when their VP was in the crew room. Might not happen here with the current leadership, but a policy and a practice needs to transcend specific people. Having a video taken of a video feed would accomplish the same thing as someone standing in the room.
The difference is that many ppl speak their minds at an LEC meeting and more than likely would not do so if it was being taped and fed to a video feed for all to see and record.
It is not to shut you up. I am telling you what the issues are associated with this sort of medium. It is not as easy as I initially thought as well. Heck I am for it, but I would hate to just implement something that caused unforeseen consequences like this. I know for a fact that my reps and National are doing more than just taking it under consideration.
Things that I have suggested are two meetings on different days in a LEC meeting month.
Meetings at the airport in some conference room. (Proving to be quite difficult to obtain one of these by the way)
Discussion on a by-law change for what a proxy is, and the ability to use them for resolutions only on the agenda. (Most guys carrying someone's proxy agree with the persons they are carrying)
Carl likes to make things seem simple, and at one time I agreed with most of that. Now that I have some experience with some of these ideas and the issues associated with them, I tend to agree that the answer is not always the simple one. Our companies employ the best and we need to be realistic about them and their abilities. On one hand we hear the argument that we need profession negotiators and on the other we are being told complex answer are generally BS. Well, which is it?
I tend to think that there are a few easy answers but when talking about something like a taped meeting, we need to look at the dangers. Pilots at Air Tran have proved what speaking their minds can do for one's career. No one would want that unintended consequence here. Guys get heated in these LEC meetings and they should not have to worry about their vent making it to You Tube or back to their company.
The difference is that many ppl speak their minds at an LEC meeting and more than likely would not do so if it was being taped and fed to a video feed for all to see and record.
It is not to shut you up. I am telling you what the issues are associated with this sort of medium. It is not as easy as I initially thought as well. Heck I am for it, but I would hate to just implement something that caused unforeseen consequences like this. I know for a fact that my reps and National are doing more than just taking it under consideration.
Things that I have suggested are two meetings on different days in a LEC meeting month.
Meetings at the airport in some conference room. (Proving to be quite difficult to obtain one of these by the way)
Discussion on a by-law change for what a proxy is, and the ability to use them for resolutions only on the agenda. (Most guys carrying someone's proxy agree with the persons they are carrying)
Carl likes to make things seem simple, and at one time I agreed with most of that. Now that I have some experience with some of these ideas and the issues associated with them, I tend to agree that the answer is not always the simple one. Our companies employ the best and we need to be realistic about them and their abilities. On one hand we hear the argument that we need profession negotiators and on the other we are being told complex answer are generally BS. Well, which is it?
I tend to think that there are a few easy answers but when talking about something like a taped meeting, we need to look at the dangers. Pilots at Air Tran have proved what speaking their minds can do for one's career. No one would want that unintended consequence here. Guys get heated in these LEC meetings and they should not have to worry about their vent making it to You Tube or back to their company.
10-18-2010 | 10:22 AM
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From: A-320A
-----------
As a starting point to understand what ACL is trying to say, take a minute or 5 to read the introductory page to the DALPA forum. This came about as a result of some pilots being accused and then being taken to court by the company for "concerted illegal action" or something like that.
Then go to the Deltanet and read the Delta social media policy (middle right of the page I think).
However, I do not think either of these is a showstopper for having online union meetings with feedback. The union meetings would just have to fit within the framework of the two above policies which could be done by having the meeting proctored.
As a starting point to understand what ACL is trying to say, take a minute or 5 to read the introductory page to the DALPA forum. This came about as a result of some pilots being accused and then being taken to court by the company for "concerted illegal action" or something like that.
Then go to the Deltanet and read the Delta social media policy (middle right of the page I think).
However, I do not think either of these is a showstopper for having online union meetings with feedback. The union meetings would just have to fit within the framework of the two above policies which could be done by having the meeting proctored.
Like I have stated, they are actively looking for a positive solution and outcome to this.
Heck a year ago we did not have Facebook and Twitter pages, and now we could watch the BOD election winner results on both. It may not be the progress we want as an end state, but it is significant progress from where we were.
The problem with proctoring a meeting is that if the by laws were changed to allow this and some portion was deleted out, there would no doubt be someone that had an issue with what was deleted. It may end up being a short term solution though. Another issue is getting the internet capability to live feed this stuff. Places that have that ability generally cost more than where the current meeting take place.
10-18-2010 | 10:34 AM
No longer cares
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From: 767er Captain
The difference is that there were company officers in the crew room meeting. Go talk to AirTran guys about this one. I know two that were fired for venting when their VP was in the crew room. Might not happen here with the current leadership, but a policy and a practice needs to transcend specific people. Having a video taken of a video feed would accomplish the same thing as someone standing in the room.
The difference is that many ppl speak their minds at an LEC meeting and more than likely would not do so if it was being taped and fed to a video feed for all to see and record.
It is not to shut you up. I am telling you what the issues are associated with this sort of medium. It is not as easy as I initially thought as well. Heck I am for it, but I would hate to just implement something that caused unforeseen consequences like this. I know for a fact that my reps and National are doing more than just taking it under consideration.
Things that I have suggested are two meetings on different days in a LEC meeting month.
Meetings at the airport in some conference room. (Proving to be quite difficult to obtain one of these by the way)
Discussion on a by-law change for what a proxy is, and the ability to use them for resolutions only on the agenda. (Most guys carrying someone's proxy agree with the persons they are carrying)
Carl likes to make things seem simple, and at one time I agreed with most of that. Now that I have some experience with some of these ideas and the issues associated with them, I tend to agree that the answer is not always the simple one. Our companies employ the best and we need to be realistic about them and their abilities. On one hand we hear the argument that we need profession negotiators and on the other we are being told complex answer are generally BS. Well, which is it?
I tend to think that there are a few easy answers but when talking about something like a taped meeting, we need to look at the dangers. Pilots at Air Tran have proved what speaking their minds can do for one's career. No one would want that unintended consequence here. Guys get heated in these LEC meetings and they should not have to worry about their vent making it to You Tube or back to their company.
The difference is that many ppl speak their minds at an LEC meeting and more than likely would not do so if it was being taped and fed to a video feed for all to see and record.
It is not to shut you up. I am telling you what the issues are associated with this sort of medium. It is not as easy as I initially thought as well. Heck I am for it, but I would hate to just implement something that caused unforeseen consequences like this. I know for a fact that my reps and National are doing more than just taking it under consideration.
Things that I have suggested are two meetings on different days in a LEC meeting month.
Meetings at the airport in some conference room. (Proving to be quite difficult to obtain one of these by the way)
Discussion on a by-law change for what a proxy is, and the ability to use them for resolutions only on the agenda. (Most guys carrying someone's proxy agree with the persons they are carrying)
Carl likes to make things seem simple, and at one time I agreed with most of that. Now that I have some experience with some of these ideas and the issues associated with them, I tend to agree that the answer is not always the simple one. Our companies employ the best and we need to be realistic about them and their abilities. On one hand we hear the argument that we need profession negotiators and on the other we are being told complex answer are generally BS. Well, which is it?
I tend to think that there are a few easy answers but when talking about something like a taped meeting, we need to look at the dangers. Pilots at Air Tran have proved what speaking their minds can do for one's career. No one would want that unintended consequence here. Guys get heated in these LEC meetings and they should not have to worry about their vent making it to You Tube or back to their company.
10-18-2010 | 10:40 AM
Inventory survival kit ..
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From: Seeking no jacket required rotations
Puh-leese!
The non sequitur of equating an aviation skill with casting a ballot aside, what ALPA can expect from you is that you won't bother to vote. You'll ignore elections, and gripe. Maybe not you specifically, but a disappointingly high number of your fellow pilots in every council.
I'll adjust my attitude when you demonstrate that you bother to exercise the vote you have NOW!
You're better served staying in the shallow end of the pool here. You advocate simple solutions to complex problems, and that shows your limited capacity or willingness to think through the problems facing ALPA
The non sequitur of equating an aviation skill with casting a ballot aside, what ALPA can expect from you is that you won't bother to vote. You'll ignore elections, and gripe. Maybe not you specifically, but a disappointingly high number of your fellow pilots in every council.
I'll adjust my attitude when you demonstrate that you bother to exercise the vote you have NOW!
You're better served staying in the shallow end of the pool here. You advocate simple solutions to complex problems, and that shows your limited capacity or willingness to think through the problems facing ALPA
10-18-2010 | 10:50 AM
At home on the maddog!
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From: Retired (mandatory age 65)
Actually that is incorrect. ALPA is in fact trying to find a way to do webcasts that protect the rights of their pilot members who chose to express their opinions at a meeting. Anyone can tape a webcast and then use it against said pilot. Word of mouth is a little different.
One of the C44 FO reps made a really good presentation on this last March. It is not for a lack of desire. It is about securing the backend of the webcast. (You)
After talking to some at National, they are working on using ALPA TV to live broadcast LEC meeting (Non-sensitive stuff like committee reports etc) I do see this coming, but not to the point that a person can vote on TV. Again it is a verification issue. I watched some of the BOD in MIA on ALPA TV. It was cool to see that.
One of the C44 FO reps made a really good presentation on this last March. It is not for a lack of desire. It is about securing the backend of the webcast. (You)
After talking to some at National, they are working on using ALPA TV to live broadcast LEC meeting (Non-sensitive stuff like committee reports etc) I do see this coming, but not to the point that a person can vote on TV. Again it is a verification issue. I watched some of the BOD in MIA on ALPA TV. It was cool to see that.
Anyway, those are just some ideas off the top of my head. I can't believe there isn't a way to make this just as secure as a physical meeting in a hotel conference room.
Here's one possible technology we could use... if we can find one big enough:
YouTube - Get Smart - The Cone Of Silence
10-18-2010 | 11:06 AM
Happy to be here
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From: A-320A
DAL88;
It is easy to use a program to block that info out. Many of the current recorders are digital and all it takes is a little work on a video editor.
If you take a video of a web case, and cannot tie it to an IP address, you cannot find the person that allowed it. Information is out there, and that would be all that mattered.
It is the 1/10 of 1% that we would have to deal with. I agree, we need to find a way, and maybe a legal waiver is one of them. I am sure that the lawyers are trying to find a way to get their clients what they want. (What I have been told)
If you have ideas how to secure the pilot end of the feed, send them to your reps. I mean that.
It is easy to use a program to block that info out. Many of the current recorders are digital and all it takes is a little work on a video editor.
If you take a video of a web case, and cannot tie it to an IP address, you cannot find the person that allowed it. Information is out there, and that would be all that mattered.
It is the 1/10 of 1% that we would have to deal with. I agree, we need to find a way, and maybe a legal waiver is one of them. I am sure that the lawyers are trying to find a way to get their clients what they want. (What I have been told)
If you have ideas how to secure the pilot end of the feed, send them to your reps. I mean that.
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