Originally Posted by newKnow

I was once talking to a very wise union man and suggested that our system sucked. He told me that we needed to change the ALPA by laws or constitution (I forget what term he used.) to change the way we elected our leaders.

Originally Posted by forgot to bid

I'm with you.

BTW, you and Satch. I watched the John Adams series with my wife. Thanks for the recommendation and thanks to that show I've read A LOT more to make sure I learned it right.

But thinking about LEC members and so forth going into ALPA reminds me of that scene where Adams prior to the revolution has just represented the soldiers in the Boston Massacre and now the king wants him to be AG, I believe. But obviously, he's known by then as a defender of colonial rights and liberties at the time but boy, the king... a job... you've been chosen... welcome in... want to stay?... want more?

I'm sorry to say that's alluring no matter who you are and that creates entrenchment and barriers to change. Something that I'm sure, again, no union would ever give up unless it was forced from the top down and nobody is going to reach the top who would ever pull that. It'd be like a King giving up the monarchy to a democracy without being forced. Doesn't happen... unless you're something very special.

Originally Posted by n9810f

If DAL axes any of the Republic flying (Chautauqua and Shuttle America), Delta is on the hook for the aircraft...if the cessation of services is terminated before the contract's expiration. It's spelled out very clearly in the Annual Report. I think all of the Shuttle E-jets are owned and the 145's are leased, so DAL would have to buy or lease the aircraft assigned to the contracts.

Originally Posted by BigGuns

LOL! But ALPA knows the Delta pilots will just bend over and take it before they leave ALPA!!!

Originally Posted by acl65pilot

Read it again. Not off the open time pot, but only other pilots in a base that have their trips on the open time (pilot to pilot) swap board. Also for pickup only. Not a swap, a P/U only. Ergo, it does not effect the staffing formulas or reserve required formulas. Make sense?

Originally Posted by Check Essential

Ask them if they now plan to file a grievance against the Republic codeshare since the govt has apparently made it official that Republic is a single carrier.

Here's a refresher of what's going on here:

The Delta Pilot contract Section 1.D.2.c ("Exception" paragraph) requires Delta to terminate codesharing with any "domestic air carrier" that operates or acquires large aircraft. "other than permitted aircraft types"
Republic acquired aircraft that would violate that section when they purchased Midwest and Frontier.
ALPA has always said that doesn't count. Their reasoning is that Republic Airways Holdings is not an air carrier. It is just a holding company for separate corporations operating under separate FAA certificates. (ie = Frontier, Republic, Chautauqua, Lynx, Shuttle America, etc. are the "air carriers").
DALPA says we don't codeshare with Frontier or Republic and they are the ones operating the Airbuses and E-190s, so its not a violation. Many pilots have said that is clearly wrong. This RAH situation is the EXACT sort of thing that 1D2c was written to prevent. We are subsidizing and bankrolling our competition. If RAH can get around it simply by using FAA certificates then that section of our contract is meaningless. It might as well not even be in there. DALPA has repeatedly declined to file a grievance and find out. They say the ALPA National lawyers have told them they would lose.

The critical question is the definition of a "domestic air carrier".

Our contract Section 1.B.22 uses the definition in federal law.

§ 40102. Definitions

(a) General Definitions.— In this part—

(2) “air carrier” means a citizen of the United States undertaking by any means, directly or indirectly, to provide air transportation.

(15) “citizen of the United States” means—

(C) a corporation or association organized under the laws of the United States or a State

Most thinking people (non ALPA lawyers) would agree that RAH is a corporation and that they are quite obviously undertaking to provide air transportation. The definition says nothing about operating certificates or anything even remotely like it.
ALPA maintains that the various airlines under RAH are separate air carriers even though they are all owned and controlled by the same corporation. Its going to be a lot harder for them to continue saying that with a straight face now that even the govt has said they are a single air carrier.


There's one further complication. Delta used to codeshare with American Eagle. That was never grieved. Does that mean we have forfeited the right to enforce that part of our contract? ??

Then there's the ALPA politics. (there's always ALPA politics).
Lee Moak wanted to be ALPA President when this came up. He needed RJ pilot support. Scope grievances would not be good for his campaign. Then we have the "recovery compact" thing with management. etc. etc. etc.
ALPA National doesn't want scope battles. They want dues.
etc. etc. etc.

sorry about the long post. I'll stop now. </rant>
If you can't tell, I think ALPA has failed on this issue. Scope enforcement is critical. We'll see what they do now that the NMB has ruled.

Originally Posted by tsquare

NO NO NO. If you allow guys to come in and pick up trips in seniority order, you might as well just have one big category system wide and bid on any trip any base.... if one is a junior lineholder he will get screwed. period. Nevermind what will happen to reserves... you aren't thinking this through. There is a HUGE risk of unintended consequence here that you do not see but is all too obvious to me. Camel... nose... tent... It's just like international pilots being allowed to fly domestic trips "as long as they are published in the bid package" See where that little gem got us didn't you? It is a totally stupid idea. (sorry Satch)

Originally Posted by Nosmo King

Deltanet, Flight Ops Page, Click on Quarterly CQ, Click on QCQ2 2011 - Spring

Scroll down to the bottom of the page.

Click on Courseware – 2011 Second Quarter QCQ Version 1.0

Originally Posted by tsquare

NO NO NO. If you allow guys to come in and pick up trips in seniority order, you might as well just have one big category system wide and bid on any trip any base.... if one is a junior lineholder he will get screwed. period. Nevermind what will happen to reserves... you aren't thinking this through. There is a HUGE risk of unintended consequence here that you do not see but is all too obvious to me. Camel... nose... tent... It's just like international pilots being allowed to fly domestic trips "as long as they are published in the bid package" See where that little gem got us didn't you? It is a totally stupid idea. (sorry Satch)