Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
04-29-2011 | 11:44 AM
Happy to be here
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18,563
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From: A-320A
Sure here goes:
I understand the need for a place that has five or six conference rooms available. Watching the meetings first hand I understand the size and scope of what is involved, and it is no small task. The last Regular Meeting had 31 Reps, 4 Officers, 5-7 support staff, 3-4 lawyers, 4, negotiators, the chairman of almost every committee, a few line pilot on lookers, new reps (5) and a countless amount of other people that were giving presentations. You have drafting committees every day, and those are three to four rooms for the three to four breakout groups of Reps, you need an area to provide for lunch, and a main conference room that is wired for audio and visual, as well as lockable for closed session. You need to bring your own wi-fi capability, and wireless printing hardware and software for the admins to print the resolutions up to pass out so everyone has the same data in front of them to vote on, you need power outlets for at least 60 people to power their laptops in for 10 hrs a day, you need a place that the reps can focus on their issues of interest away from the very timed meeting day (hospitality suite) and you need rooms for all of the people that need em; probably close to 60 or so a night if it is not in Atlanta.
If it is a major meeting even the Atlanta personnel will stay a few nights as these things start at 0730 and run to well after six, then close to midnight discussing the way everyone is going to vote.
Point is that this is no junior league organization, and it does take a ton of money to run. I have always argued that we could do a little better in cost, but remember that many of those rates have internet, tax, food etc thrown in since we get comped this and that on some meetings.
Could we do better in the way of cost?, maybe but before we shot em, go ask what deals we got on the W last year. We got a killer rate because we booked a cancellation of a conference. We search for the deals. The food in the suite is average; hot dogs, burgers, etc, nothing fancy. Beer is free and there is a lot of that though.
I was floored at the cost of some of this stuff, but when I had it explained to be by our Tres, saw a bunch of meetings, witnessed our reps trying to save money not take money from the pilots, and overall acting very frugal, I began to understand that it is not an excess of a few, but the shear scope of our union's operation that costs money.
Yes, the hotel near the airport is generally a lot cheaper, but there are reasons to not have it there for a five or six day meeting. These places will also ding you on extra conference rooms etc, and when you tally all of that up, it get more expensive real quick. Also, the meetings at the airport in that report are generally one day special meetings that do not require anything but one room, reps rooms only and no meals and extra space that a long Regular Meeting does.
We can do better, but not to the level you think, they really do a good job at this. Maybe the crew hotels would be a good idea, but they would have to have four small conference rooms, and one large on for five days.
I understand the need for a place that has five or six conference rooms available. Watching the meetings first hand I understand the size and scope of what is involved, and it is no small task. The last Regular Meeting had 31 Reps, 4 Officers, 5-7 support staff, 3-4 lawyers, 4, negotiators, the chairman of almost every committee, a few line pilot on lookers, new reps (5) and a countless amount of other people that were giving presentations. You have drafting committees every day, and those are three to four rooms for the three to four breakout groups of Reps, you need an area to provide for lunch, and a main conference room that is wired for audio and visual, as well as lockable for closed session. You need to bring your own wi-fi capability, and wireless printing hardware and software for the admins to print the resolutions up to pass out so everyone has the same data in front of them to vote on, you need power outlets for at least 60 people to power their laptops in for 10 hrs a day, you need a place that the reps can focus on their issues of interest away from the very timed meeting day (hospitality suite) and you need rooms for all of the people that need em; probably close to 60 or so a night if it is not in Atlanta.
If it is a major meeting even the Atlanta personnel will stay a few nights as these things start at 0730 and run to well after six, then close to midnight discussing the way everyone is going to vote.
Point is that this is no junior league organization, and it does take a ton of money to run. I have always argued that we could do a little better in cost, but remember that many of those rates have internet, tax, food etc thrown in since we get comped this and that on some meetings.
Could we do better in the way of cost?, maybe but before we shot em, go ask what deals we got on the W last year. We got a killer rate because we booked a cancellation of a conference. We search for the deals. The food in the suite is average; hot dogs, burgers, etc, nothing fancy. Beer is free and there is a lot of that though.
I was floored at the cost of some of this stuff, but when I had it explained to be by our Tres, saw a bunch of meetings, witnessed our reps trying to save money not take money from the pilots, and overall acting very frugal, I began to understand that it is not an excess of a few, but the shear scope of our union's operation that costs money.
Yes, the hotel near the airport is generally a lot cheaper, but there are reasons to not have it there for a five or six day meeting. These places will also ding you on extra conference rooms etc, and when you tally all of that up, it get more expensive real quick. Also, the meetings at the airport in that report are generally one day special meetings that do not require anything but one room, reps rooms only and no meals and extra space that a long Regular Meeting does.
We can do better, but not to the level you think, they really do a good job at this. Maybe the crew hotels would be a good idea, but they would have to have four small conference rooms, and one large on for five days.
04-29-2011 | 11:47 AM
Happy to be here
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18,563
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From: A-320A
Talk to your reps, or bring a resolution forward.
04-29-2011 | 11:51 AM
At home on the maddog!
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,874
Likes: 0
From: Retired (mandatory age 65)
Sure here goes:
I understand the need for a place that has five or six conference rooms available. Watching the meetings first hand I understand the size and scope of what is involved, and it is no small task. The last Regular Meeting had 31 Reps, 4 Officers, 5-7 support staff, 3-4 lawyers, 4, negotiators, the chairman of almost every committee, a few line pilot on lookers, new reps (5) and a countless amount of other people that were giving presentations. You have drafting committees every day, and those are three to four rooms for the three to four breakout groups of Reps, you need an area to provide for lunch, and a main conference room that is wired for audio and visual, as well as lockable for closed session. You need to bring your own wi-fi capability, and wireless printing hardware and software for the admins to print the resolutions up to pass out so everyone has the same data in front of them to vote on, you need power outlets for at least 60 people to power their laptops in for 10 hrs a day, you need a place that the reps can focus on their issues of interest away from the very timed meeting day (hospitality suite) and you need rooms for all of the people that need em; probably close to 60 or so a night if it is not in Atlanta.
If it is a major meeting even the Atlanta personnel will stay a few nights as these things start at 0730 and run to well after six, then close to midnight discussing the way everyone is going to vote.
Point is that this is no junior league organization, and it does take a ton of money to run. I have always argued that we could do a little better in cost, but remember that many of those rates have internet, tax, food etc thrown in since we get comped this and that on some meetings.
Could we do better in the way of cost?, maybe but before we shot em, go ask what deals we got on the W last year. We got a killer rate because we booked a cancellation of a conference. We search for the deals. The food in the suite is average; hot dogs, burgers, etc, nothing fancy. Beer is free and there is a lot of that though.
I was floored at the cost of some of this stuff, but when I had it explained to be by our Tres, saw a bunch of meetings, witnessed our reps trying to save money not take money from the pilots, and overall acting very frugal, I began to understand that it is not an excess of a few, but the shear scope of our union's operation that costs money.
Yes, the hotel near the airport is generally a lot cheaper, but there are reasons to not have it there for a five or six day meeting. These places will also ding you on extra conference rooms etc, and when you tally all of that up, it get more expensive real quick. Also, the meetings at the airport in that report are generally one day special meetings that do not require anything but one room, reps rooms only and no meals and extra space that a long Regular Meeting does.
We can do better, but not to the level you think, they really do a good job at this. Maybe the crew hotels would be a good idea, but they would have to have four small conference rooms, and one large on for five days.
I understand the need for a place that has five or six conference rooms available. Watching the meetings first hand I understand the size and scope of what is involved, and it is no small task. The last Regular Meeting had 31 Reps, 4 Officers, 5-7 support staff, 3-4 lawyers, 4, negotiators, the chairman of almost every committee, a few line pilot on lookers, new reps (5) and a countless amount of other people that were giving presentations. You have drafting committees every day, and those are three to four rooms for the three to four breakout groups of Reps, you need an area to provide for lunch, and a main conference room that is wired for audio and visual, as well as lockable for closed session. You need to bring your own wi-fi capability, and wireless printing hardware and software for the admins to print the resolutions up to pass out so everyone has the same data in front of them to vote on, you need power outlets for at least 60 people to power their laptops in for 10 hrs a day, you need a place that the reps can focus on their issues of interest away from the very timed meeting day (hospitality suite) and you need rooms for all of the people that need em; probably close to 60 or so a night if it is not in Atlanta.
If it is a major meeting even the Atlanta personnel will stay a few nights as these things start at 0730 and run to well after six, then close to midnight discussing the way everyone is going to vote.
Point is that this is no junior league organization, and it does take a ton of money to run. I have always argued that we could do a little better in cost, but remember that many of those rates have internet, tax, food etc thrown in since we get comped this and that on some meetings.
Could we do better in the way of cost?, maybe but before we shot em, go ask what deals we got on the W last year. We got a killer rate because we booked a cancellation of a conference. We search for the deals. The food in the suite is average; hot dogs, burgers, etc, nothing fancy. Beer is free and there is a lot of that though.
I was floored at the cost of some of this stuff, but when I had it explained to be by our Tres, saw a bunch of meetings, witnessed our reps trying to save money not take money from the pilots, and overall acting very frugal, I began to understand that it is not an excess of a few, but the shear scope of our union's operation that costs money.
Yes, the hotel near the airport is generally a lot cheaper, but there are reasons to not have it there for a five or six day meeting. These places will also ding you on extra conference rooms etc, and when you tally all of that up, it get more expensive real quick. Also, the meetings at the airport in that report are generally one day special meetings that do not require anything but one room, reps rooms only and no meals and extra space that a long Regular Meeting does.
We can do better, but not to the level you think, they really do a good job at this. Maybe the crew hotels would be a good idea, but they would have to have four small conference rooms, and one large on for five days.
I'm not sure I could spend that much if I tried!
04-29-2011 | 12:04 PM
Happy to be here
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18,563
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From: A-320A
I'm sure a lot of that is true. I guess what really jumps out at me is the cost per person for food and beverages. Some of the meetings were shorter meetings and not a full day. But based on what I saw in the reports, it looks to me like the average full day food/beverage cost per person is around $175. That would be an average of a little over $58 per meal! I'm not sure I could spend that much if I tried!
I'm not sure I could spend that much if I tried!For lunch it is generally catered in so that the association's business can continue though lunch uninterrupted. (Pack more crap it) Those are done by the hotels and as you know most of those will be 20-40 per plate, but a serving fee. Breakfast is served there and is buffet style. Nothing fantasy by any account. Oatmeal, fresh fruit, eggs, bacon, and the like for breakfast. Lunch is a protein, iced tea, salad and a soup. Again nothing mind boggling. My guess is the cost comes from doing it in house, which may cost more but it keeps the meetings shorter and less night for a hotel.
A few lunches we all went out in groups, those we paid for. I know I did not expense those. Rooms are direct billed to the association, charges are yours and a credit card is kept on file. No free spending. King keeps a very close tab on all of that. He is the King of "No." Just ask around.
04-29-2011 | 12:08 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 588
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From: A-320/A
What the heck are these guys eating and drinking.
A recent visit to the DTW ALPA Council 20 office produced very interesting results. While the MEC failed to meet an eight week resolution mandate to produce all Flight Pay Loss reports for 2010 and 2011, it did make 2010 meeting expenses available for Delta Pilots to view. The MEC did not publish this report to its website, but harassed its members in good standing by prohibiting photocopying or photographing the document. It forced members to hand transcribe the document if the member wished to export the information. When challenged by a DPA member for specific policy citation, ALPA leadership stated that no policy prohibited the dissemination of the information, but that it was the preference of current ALPA leadership to restrict access and, therefore, limit transparency.
Read the DALPA Meeting Expense Report generated from two hours of hand transcribing to learn about the wasteful spending habits of the DALPA MEC. If $329.00 per night hotel rooms disturb you or 12 day meetings in beach destinations concern you, you are not alone. Over $1.6 MILLION in Delta Pilot dues was spent just in 2010 on meetings and associated comforts
A recent visit to the DTW ALPA Council 20 office produced very interesting results. While the MEC failed to meet an eight week resolution mandate to produce all Flight Pay Loss reports for 2010 and 2011, it did make 2010 meeting expenses available for Delta Pilots to view. The MEC did not publish this report to its website, but harassed its members in good standing by prohibiting photocopying or photographing the document. It forced members to hand transcribe the document if the member wished to export the information. When challenged by a DPA member for specific policy citation, ALPA leadership stated that no policy prohibited the dissemination of the information, but that it was the preference of current ALPA leadership to restrict access and, therefore, limit transparency.
Read the DALPA Meeting Expense Report generated from two hours of hand transcribing to learn about the wasteful spending habits of the DALPA MEC. If $329.00 per night hotel rooms disturb you or 12 day meetings in beach destinations concern you, you are not alone. Over $1.6 MILLION in Delta Pilot dues was spent just in 2010 on meetings and associated comforts
Chuck
04-29-2011 | 12:08 PM
At home on the maddog!
Joined: Mar 2009
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From: Retired (mandatory age 65)
I do not know how that info was broken out, but when I have been there under official business, I have opted to go out with the reps for dinner so that I can get something well below the daily meal allowance. I generally came in at about 22 a meal plus tip. It is more or less what I saw. No crazy Steak and lobster dinners, no 100 dollar bottles of wine. None of that. These guys are very good. I mean that. Even I was impressed.
For lunch it is generally catered in so that the association's business can continue though lunch uninterrupted. (Pack more crap it) Those are done by the hotels and as you know most of those will be 20-40 per plate, but a serving fee. Breakfast is served there and is buffet style. Nothing fantasy by any account. Oatmeal, fresh fruit, eggs, bacon, and the like for breakfast. Lunch is a protein, iced tea, salad and a soup. Again nothing mind boggling. My guess is the cost comes from doing it in house, which may cost more but it keeps the meetings shorter and less night for a hotel.
A few lunches we all went out in groups, those we paid for. I know I did not expense those. Rooms are direct billed to the association, charges are yours and a credit card is kept on file. No free spending. King keeps a very close tab on all of that. He is the King of "No." Just ask around.
For lunch it is generally catered in so that the association's business can continue though lunch uninterrupted. (Pack more crap it) Those are done by the hotels and as you know most of those will be 20-40 per plate, but a serving fee. Breakfast is served there and is buffet style. Nothing fantasy by any account. Oatmeal, fresh fruit, eggs, bacon, and the like for breakfast. Lunch is a protein, iced tea, salad and a soup. Again nothing mind boggling. My guess is the cost comes from doing it in house, which may cost more but it keeps the meetings shorter and less night for a hotel.
A few lunches we all went out in groups, those we paid for. I know I did not expense those. Rooms are direct billed to the association, charges are yours and a credit card is kept on file. No free spending. King keeps a very close tab on all of that. He is the King of "No." Just ask around.
Sorry... but either the data is wrong, or there is some real extravagance (or complete fiscal irresponsibility) going on there. If the data is correct, I don't see how it can be any other way.
04-29-2011 | 12:09 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,457
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From: LAX ERA
04-29-2011 | 12:10 PM
Inventory survival kit ..
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,069
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From: Seeking no jacket required rotations
I also remember that the BOD portion of the expenses was picked up by ALPA National and not by the individual MECs. Maybe that has changed recently, but that is how it was 15-20 years ago. Most of the major MECs tacked their MEC meetings on the front end of the BOD meeting for convenience. The MEC would cover that portion of the cost prior to the start of the BOD meeting.
Now some of the non-BOD meetings looked kind of expensive, but there is no cost breakout specific enough to identify the reason. I believe that was done on purpose.
I guess none (LEC20 reps included) of us is making a "reasonable" request to see FPL data in its entirety. We are all just unreasonable ingrates for wanting to see how our dues money is spent.
FWIW I do bbelieve the Council 20 reps are trying their best to get the data to the pilots without violating any of the "policies." Even the policies we can't seem to find in writing.*** REPOST FROM EARLIER IN APRIL 2011 BELOW ***
Originally Posted by NOSMO KING
SECTION 10 − MEMBER COMPENSATION
A. Delta MEC flight pay loss/member compensation will be in accordance with the ALPA
Administrative Manual, Section 60.M.
B. ALPA-paid (directly or by reimbursement to the carrier) flight pay loss/compensation
received by members will be available to the MEC and membership upon reasonable
request.
A. Delta MEC flight pay loss/member compensation will be in accordance with the ALPA
Administrative Manual, Section 60.M.
B. ALPA-paid (directly or by reimbursement to the carrier) flight pay loss/compensation
received by members will be available to the MEC and membership upon reasonable
request.
Last edited by Nosmo King; 04-29-2011 at 12:34 PM. Reason: Korect speling errerz
04-29-2011 | 12:11 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 588
Likes: 0
From: A-320/A
I do not know how that info was broken out, but when I have been there under official business, I have opted to go out with the reps for dinner so that I can get something well below the daily meal allowance. I generally came in at about 22 a meal plus tip. It is more or less what I saw. No crazy Steak and lobster dinners, no 100 dollar bottles of wine. None of that. These guys are very good. I mean that. Even I was impressed.
For lunch it is generally catered in so that the association's business can continue though lunch uninterrupted. (Pack more crap it) Those are done by the hotels and as you know most of those will be 20-40 per plate, but a serving fee. Breakfast is served there and is buffet style. Nothing fantasy by any account. Oatmeal, fresh fruit, eggs, bacon, and the like for breakfast. Lunch is a protein, iced tea, salad and a soup. Again nothing mind boggling. My guess is the cost comes from doing it in house, which may cost more but it keeps the meetings shorter and less night for a hotel.
A few lunches we all went out in groups, those we paid for. I know I did not expense those. Rooms are direct billed to the association, charges are yours and a credit card is kept on file. No free spending. King keeps a very close tab on all of that. He is the King of "No." Just ask around.
For lunch it is generally catered in so that the association's business can continue though lunch uninterrupted. (Pack more crap it) Those are done by the hotels and as you know most of those will be 20-40 per plate, but a serving fee. Breakfast is served there and is buffet style. Nothing fantasy by any account. Oatmeal, fresh fruit, eggs, bacon, and the like for breakfast. Lunch is a protein, iced tea, salad and a soup. Again nothing mind boggling. My guess is the cost comes from doing it in house, which may cost more but it keeps the meetings shorter and less night for a hotel.
A few lunches we all went out in groups, those we paid for. I know I did not expense those. Rooms are direct billed to the association, charges are yours and a credit card is kept on file. No free spending. King keeps a very close tab on all of that. He is the King of "No." Just ask around.
I'm not trying to beat up the ALPA volunteers. However, the appearances look pretty, unseemly. I'm sure that there are reasonable explanations, so it concerns me that the reps are not forthcoming with them.
Chuck
04-29-2011 | 12:31 PM
Doesn't Get Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,599
Likes: 2
That's all well and good, ACL. But it doesn't come anywhere close to equating to $175/day. Some of the meetings came in at $250+ per day for food/beverage! Sorry... but either the data is wrong, or there is some real extravagance (or complete fiscal irresponsibility) going on there. If the data is correct, I don't see how it can be any other way.
Sorry... but either the data is wrong, or there is some real extravagance (or complete fiscal irresponsibility) going on there. If the data is correct, I don't see how it can be any other way.I know at my last ALPA job they spent more on alcohol than they did food at these meetings. I don't have a problem with people drinking, but I do have a problem with them spending more for alcohol than food using our dues money. I think they should pay for food and beverages out of their own pocket then get re-imbursed the IRS meals and entertainment rate for the city they are in.
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