Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-03-2011 | 11:01 AM
Gets Weekends Off
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From the Atlanta fishwrapper
Reduced options rile some travelers | ajc.com
Reduced options rile some travelers
Southwest’s lack of business class, assigned seats has fliers on edge.
One of Southwest Airlines’ mantras really bugs business traveler Robert Scott.
“We’re not all things to all people,” Southwest Airlines chief executive Gary Kelly has been known to say.
Scott fears he’s one of the “all people” Kelly means. That’s because when Southwest fully absorbs AirTran, he’ll no longer be able to book the business class seats he loves — at least not on AirTran-turned-Southwest.
As welcome as Southwest’s arrival in Atlanta may be to many fliers, some business fliers such as Scott fear they will face reduced choices. AirTran had a hybrid service model of low fares coupled with mainstream service, including business class and traditional assigned seating. Southwest has neither.
“I’ll miss AirTran a lot,” Scott said. “I liked having an assigned seat and being able to go in business class for not a lot of money.” In the future, he added, “I’ll probably fly Delta a lot more.”
Chris McGinnis, editor of The Ticket newsletter for Atlanta business travelers, said the lack of a business-class seating option is “the biggest obstacle Southwest is going to face in Atlanta ... Everybody’s up in arms over that.”
Southwest spokesman Chris Mainz said AirTran loyalists may not be used to Southwest’s style of operating but may come to like it.
“AirTran has a very loyal following, and they’re used to the services and the style that AirTran operates,” Mainz said. “We strongly feel that once they do experience Southwest service, they’ll come to appreciate it as much as our current loyal business travelers do.”
Southwest executives often point to the airline’s overall success and steady growth in passenger counts as evidence of the wisdom of their approach.
“We’re very confident in our product,” Mainz said. “We encourage and invite them to fly Southwest Airlines, then let them decide if it’s the right choice for them.”
In selling itself to Atlanta Southwest is likely to tout is its lack of checked baggage fees. Yet that won’t benefit business travelers who travel light or got free baggage check due to elite frequent flier status.
Although AirTran started out as a no-frills carrier, over the years it added full-service perks in order to win a chunk of the business travel market, which is typically a big profit center for airlines because such travelers book less-restricted, more expensive fares.
Mainz said Southwest is listening to AirTran business travelers. “We do value their feedback,” he said. Attracting business travelers has been a big focus for Southwest recently, and “any decision that we make, we have the business traveler in mind,” Mainz said.
Kelly, the CEO, has said Southwest arguably carries more business travelers than rivals because of its sheer size as the largest U.S. carrier in the domestic market. He’s also acknowledged the airline loses out on some business travel and wants to change that.
“Whether we’ll get our ‘fair share’ eventually, I don’t know. But we’ve got a long way to go,” he told analysts recently.
McGinnis expects that the removal of AirTran’s business class will lead to some higher first class fares and less room for upgrades on Delta.
Southwest also plans to end AirTran’s assigned seating, further irking some AirTran frequent fliers.
“When you spend your entire life on a plane, you kind of get particular about what you want,” said one, Don Turner. He commutes weekly to California and said he needs a seat with space to be comfortable and to work on the plane.
“I think there are some real fans [of Southwest] who are used to getting on the plane in sweatpants and reading a book,” he said. “They’re not really expecting to work.”
Southwest is showing more flexibility in other areas with the acquisition. For instance, it has only flown 737s throughout its history, a practice that keeps fleet management simpler and less costly. But it will inherit smaller Boeing 717s in the AirTran deal. It also will take over some of AirTran’s Caribbean routes, which will be its first outside the U.S. And it is taking over a full-blown connecting hub in Atlanta after decades of eschewing the connecting hub model.
Turner and a number of other AirTran business travelers are taking a wait-and-see approach, or planning to fly carriers with a traditional approach.
“I’ve got nothing against [Southwest],” Turner said. “[Southwest] just doesn’t fit my travel requirements.”
Joe Leader organized a “Save our Seats” campaign among AirTran frequent fliers to try to persuade Southwest to keep business class and assigned seats.
“The times I flew Southwest when it was genuinely cattle call, I really disliked it,” said Leader, of Dunwoody, who is president of a trade association. “I’ve heard that it’s gotten better recently. I won’t believe it till I see it.”
Ron DiLeo, executive director of the Association of Corporate Travel Executives, takes a more measured view. “Where I think it will be positive for business travelers is Southwest has a huge network ... It’ll be easier for you to stick to one airline” than it was with AirTran.
Meanwhile, Delta has launched a campaign in Atlanta emphasizing its 70 years as “Atlanta’s hometown airline” — a message that might resonate when it goes up against the mega discounter from Texas. And Delta has been promoting the addition of first-class seats on more planes, including some regional jets.
Alan Bender, a professor at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University, said some businesspeople, such as sales people and entrepreneurs, still will gravitate to Southwest because cost and convenience is more important to them than perks.
“What’s important on a one-hour flight is who has the next flight out,” Bender said.
Terry Sherwin, an insurance broker based in Smyrna, liked getting upgraded to business class on AirTran as an elite frequent flier, but he’s willing to give Southwest a try.
“I’m going to try them first, and if I don’t like them, I’ll probably go back to Delta,” Sherwin said.
Reduced options rile some travelers | ajc.com
Reduced options rile some travelers
Southwest’s lack of business class, assigned seats has fliers on edge.
One of Southwest Airlines’ mantras really bugs business traveler Robert Scott.
“We’re not all things to all people,” Southwest Airlines chief executive Gary Kelly has been known to say.
Scott fears he’s one of the “all people” Kelly means. That’s because when Southwest fully absorbs AirTran, he’ll no longer be able to book the business class seats he loves — at least not on AirTran-turned-Southwest.
As welcome as Southwest’s arrival in Atlanta may be to many fliers, some business fliers such as Scott fear they will face reduced choices. AirTran had a hybrid service model of low fares coupled with mainstream service, including business class and traditional assigned seating. Southwest has neither.
“I’ll miss AirTran a lot,” Scott said. “I liked having an assigned seat and being able to go in business class for not a lot of money.” In the future, he added, “I’ll probably fly Delta a lot more.”
Chris McGinnis, editor of The Ticket newsletter for Atlanta business travelers, said the lack of a business-class seating option is “the biggest obstacle Southwest is going to face in Atlanta ... Everybody’s up in arms over that.”
Southwest spokesman Chris Mainz said AirTran loyalists may not be used to Southwest’s style of operating but may come to like it.
“AirTran has a very loyal following, and they’re used to the services and the style that AirTran operates,” Mainz said. “We strongly feel that once they do experience Southwest service, they’ll come to appreciate it as much as our current loyal business travelers do.”
Southwest executives often point to the airline’s overall success and steady growth in passenger counts as evidence of the wisdom of their approach.
“We’re very confident in our product,” Mainz said. “We encourage and invite them to fly Southwest Airlines, then let them decide if it’s the right choice for them.”
In selling itself to Atlanta Southwest is likely to tout is its lack of checked baggage fees. Yet that won’t benefit business travelers who travel light or got free baggage check due to elite frequent flier status.
Although AirTran started out as a no-frills carrier, over the years it added full-service perks in order to win a chunk of the business travel market, which is typically a big profit center for airlines because such travelers book less-restricted, more expensive fares.
Mainz said Southwest is listening to AirTran business travelers. “We do value their feedback,” he said. Attracting business travelers has been a big focus for Southwest recently, and “any decision that we make, we have the business traveler in mind,” Mainz said.
Kelly, the CEO, has said Southwest arguably carries more business travelers than rivals because of its sheer size as the largest U.S. carrier in the domestic market. He’s also acknowledged the airline loses out on some business travel and wants to change that.
“Whether we’ll get our ‘fair share’ eventually, I don’t know. But we’ve got a long way to go,” he told analysts recently.
McGinnis expects that the removal of AirTran’s business class will lead to some higher first class fares and less room for upgrades on Delta.
Southwest also plans to end AirTran’s assigned seating, further irking some AirTran frequent fliers.
“When you spend your entire life on a plane, you kind of get particular about what you want,” said one, Don Turner. He commutes weekly to California and said he needs a seat with space to be comfortable and to work on the plane.
“I think there are some real fans [of Southwest] who are used to getting on the plane in sweatpants and reading a book,” he said. “They’re not really expecting to work.”
Southwest is showing more flexibility in other areas with the acquisition. For instance, it has only flown 737s throughout its history, a practice that keeps fleet management simpler and less costly. But it will inherit smaller Boeing 717s in the AirTran deal. It also will take over some of AirTran’s Caribbean routes, which will be its first outside the U.S. And it is taking over a full-blown connecting hub in Atlanta after decades of eschewing the connecting hub model.
Turner and a number of other AirTran business travelers are taking a wait-and-see approach, or planning to fly carriers with a traditional approach.
“I’ve got nothing against [Southwest],” Turner said. “[Southwest] just doesn’t fit my travel requirements.”
Joe Leader organized a “Save our Seats” campaign among AirTran frequent fliers to try to persuade Southwest to keep business class and assigned seats.
“The times I flew Southwest when it was genuinely cattle call, I really disliked it,” said Leader, of Dunwoody, who is president of a trade association. “I’ve heard that it’s gotten better recently. I won’t believe it till I see it.”
Ron DiLeo, executive director of the Association of Corporate Travel Executives, takes a more measured view. “Where I think it will be positive for business travelers is Southwest has a huge network ... It’ll be easier for you to stick to one airline” than it was with AirTran.
Meanwhile, Delta has launched a campaign in Atlanta emphasizing its 70 years as “Atlanta’s hometown airline” — a message that might resonate when it goes up against the mega discounter from Texas. And Delta has been promoting the addition of first-class seats on more planes, including some regional jets.
Alan Bender, a professor at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University, said some businesspeople, such as sales people and entrepreneurs, still will gravitate to Southwest because cost and convenience is more important to them than perks.
“What’s important on a one-hour flight is who has the next flight out,” Bender said.
Terry Sherwin, an insurance broker based in Smyrna, liked getting upgraded to business class on AirTran as an elite frequent flier, but he’s willing to give Southwest a try.
“I’m going to try them first, and if I don’t like them, I’ll probably go back to Delta,” Sherwin said.
05-03-2011 | 11:09 AM
Gets Weekends Off
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From: 765-A
05-03-2011 | 11:10 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
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From: Light Chop
Buzz, this is real estate that was given up by our illustrious ATL MEC/pro-management team. In the world of land warfare it is exponentially harder to retake turf than to defend it; same principles apply here. While I would like to believe that DAL ALPA may finally get a case of nasty in their soul, management has been awarding long term 70 and 76 seat contracts as fast as they can and right up to the limit. Of course a VP will will make a base tour and tell some sheep that he "hates RJ's," the reality is that a EMB 170-195 nor a CRJ-900 is a RJ. The 737's flown by Alaska aren't RJ's either but the damage is actually much worse. Realistically, it doesn't matter what some VP in a crew lounge states, it's not an official declaration and for all practical purposes he's lying. He probably flies back to ATL and high-fives his buddies," Yeah, I told them I hate RJ's.".
Even if management were to agree on restoring scope, they would caveat it with, "Well we've negotiated ten-year contracts with these carriers and it's economically impossible to buy our way out of these contracts until then." The reality, half the pilots at this airline will more than likely be retired before we could see that reversal come to fruition; it'd be three contracts down the road.
I've run the logic every which way I can, the only two options are the status quo or mergers. The status quo will only lead to more pain (the train wreck that already began long ago).
Even if management were to agree on restoring scope, they would caveat it with, "Well we've negotiated ten-year contracts with these carriers and it's economically impossible to buy our way out of these contracts until then." The reality, half the pilots at this airline will more than likely be retired before we could see that reversal come to fruition; it'd be three contracts down the road.
I've run the logic every which way I can, the only two options are the status quo or mergers. The status quo will only lead to more pain (the train wreck that already began long ago).
The problem that needs to be addressed now is the mentality in ATL. Of all people, a pilot in a management position has chosen to reduce the 320 training program to "video professor-style" training. Ive flown with a multitude of great South pilots who really appreciated the 320 training program, referring to it as the old Delta way of doing busines; no more. Destroyed by one of our own, so he can save money in how we train and add the up front monetary savings to his resume. Hopefully, nothing goes wrong, if it does maybe they can pay for the damages out of his paycheck.
Similar in mentality, but an entirely different topic, scope/code shares. Seems like the crud sandwich always starts away from ATL. Management approaches DAL ALPA, requests more scope relief and code shares, ALPA negotiates a win for ATL in some other area (777 deliveries!), every base west of the Mississippi gets hosed.
Sorry, not optimistic in the least bit.
Similar in mentality, but an entirely different topic, scope/code shares. Seems like the crud sandwich always starts away from ATL. Management approaches DAL ALPA, requests more scope relief and code shares, ALPA negotiates a win for ATL in some other area (777 deliveries!), every base west of the Mississippi gets hosed.
Sorry, not optimistic in the least bit.
as MSP, MEM, DTW and CVG are better facilities. This is also the base where it took a significant acquisition of 90s before they'd allow the 88 pilots to be qualified on it. Had it not been for the surge of 90s only CVG, MSP and probably NYC pilots would fly the quality of trips that comes with the 90 (such as what the SLC pilots had) versus slugging it out in the 88 east of the Mississippi River to those awesome hotspots like the Dayton long and short overnight.
If I was the 88 A I was talking to a week ago I'd tell you about 1996 and who I think DALPA's primary concern is. And that's senior pilots (or at least as senior as the decision makers are at ALPA). If what he talked about was correct (especially when it came to lump sum retirements) then it would similar to what we saw at Continental Express when our ALPA negotiated to end the flow to CAL but guess what, the last qualified person was just junior of the lowest ALPA pilot negotiating the end of the flow. You take care of your own in other words.
Now that might draw the ire of PG or Slow and by all means I just throw it out there for the sake of the dialogue and a retort is always encouraged here. Otherwise, the thread would die.
I don't think ATL is the beneficiary of DALPA work but rather its just a pretty big facility, well not pretty, just big. If you saw a 744 base here while there is no 744 flying, that'd be a red flag for sure. But I do think LAX and the west coast don't get what they should get in terms of protection from the detrimental effects of Alaska. Let's hope New's source is right and that's being reviewed. What's good for LAX and SEA is good for ATL, MSP, MEM, NYC, DTW and CVG.
05-03-2011 | 11:26 AM
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From: Dismayed
Now having said that, the real answer will be something like "it depends". I think they finally realized their scheduling mistakes and are trying to get more of the elephant through the snake.
Good luck, when did you finish training? For reference, I finished mid-Feb.
05-03-2011 | 11:30 AM
Works Every Weekend
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From: 737 ATL
If I was the 88 A I was talking to a week ago I'd tell you about 1996 and who I think DALPA's primary concern is. And that's senior pilots (or at least as senior as the decision makers are at ALPA). If what he talked about was correct (especially when it came to lump sum retirements) then it would similar to what we saw at Continental Express when our ALPA negotiated to end the flow to CAL but guess what, the last qualified person was just junior of the lowest ALPA pilot negotiating the end of the flow. You take care of your own in other words.
Now that might draw the ire of PG or Slow and by all means I just throw it out there for the sake of the dialogue and a retort is always encouraged here. Otherwise, the thread would die.
Now that might draw the ire of PG or Slow and by all means I just throw it out there for the sake of the dialogue and a retort is always encouraged here. Otherwise, the thread would die.
Long ago and far away we had Bill Brown and the 96 contract with the 500 early outs. The MEC in those days was completely and totally corrupt. It can and does happen right here at Mother D. Take a look at the "Ryan Report" some day.
05-03-2011 | 11:38 AM
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From: A330
Delta Domestic departures by hub. (Based on July 06)
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05-03-2011 | 11:58 AM
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Well I can tell you that when I walk in the crew room, I would say that at least five pilots are looking at this board.
It is simple. We have trips together that have overnights. Educate yourself, and then talk amongst your crew when you are on the layo.
I have been very encouraged by the pilots I have talked to. All of them see scope as crucial to any long term contractual gains.
It is simple. We have trips together that have overnights. Educate yourself, and then talk amongst your crew when you are on the layo.
I have been very encouraged by the pilots I have talked to. All of them see scope as crucial to any long term contractual gains.
Seems like the pilot group is always on the short end of the stick when contract interpretation comes up.
If I understand it correctly, as far as the Republic discussion goes, it does not violate our scope restrictions because Republic is considered a holding company and not considered as single-carrier status?
05-03-2011 | 12:12 PM
Happy to be here
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From: A-320A
While I think scope is paramount in the next contract, I think we need to get alot better about actually enforcing what's in the contract. I feel like we are always the side of that table that works/negotiates in good faith which is rarely ever reciprocated during tense contract negotiations.
Seems like the pilot group is always on the short end of the stick when contract interpretation comes up.
If I understand it correctly, as far as the Republic discussion goes, it does not violate our scope restrictions because Republic is considered a holding company and not considered as single-carrier status?
Seems like the pilot group is always on the short end of the stick when contract interpretation comes up.
If I understand it correctly, as far as the Republic discussion goes, it does not violate our scope restrictions because Republic is considered a holding company and not considered as single-carrier status?
Point is that Republic Holdings is acting like the air carrier, not just their certificates. Per the definition we use in the PWA (CFR Part 49's definition of "Air Carrier), it can be deemed that there have been significant changes in the way Republic Holdings operates, and therefore the holding company has become the air carrier, and is the single transport system.
You can also deduce that the holding company has many of the HR functions, including pilot selection and hiring. They also direct their certificates to perform branded flying outside of a Capacity Purchase Agreement (CPA: Republic Airlines and CHQ are doing branded operations for Frontier; F9)
05-03-2011 | 12:13 PM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined: Jun 2009
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From: 777B
While I think scope is paramount in the next contract, I think we need to get alot better about actually enforcing what's in the contract. I feel like we are always the side of that table that works/negotiates in good faith which is rarely ever reciprocated during tense contract negotiations.
Seems like the pilot group is always on the short end of the stick when contract interpretation comes up.
If I understand it correctly, as far as the Republic discussion goes, it does not violate our scope restrictions because Republic is considered a holding company and not considered as single-carrier status?
Seems like the pilot group is always on the short end of the stick when contract interpretation comes up.
If I understand it correctly, as far as the Republic discussion goes, it does not violate our scope restrictions because Republic is considered a holding company and not considered as single-carrier status?
When UPS negotiates their contract, they videotape all of the back and forth - they nail down what is meant and expected...pretty enforceable.
05-03-2011 | 12:15 PM
No longer cares
Joined: Mar 2008
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From: 767er Captain
No, I am not saying that at all. I was just answering the question about how the guys with long trips are able to effectively sell back their vacation. One cannot do that in a category that has a preponderance of short.. 3-4 day trips. They are not truly selling it back, but the net result is the same.. they are not dropping trips back into the pot.
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