Agree 110%. If the reserves available are less than the reserves required, then a WS should be 150%. IA and GS for lineholders should be 2X pay. GS for reserves should be 150% and IA for reserves should be 2X pay both over guarantee. Pay at 150% over 80 hours doesn't work if we have a cap, and I think you already know how I feel about the cap.

I just ate 10 sushi rolls and got my picture taken with Marilyn Monroe. I love Vegas!

http://members.cox.net/bbogar/BabSlotMachine200.jpg

Honey BBQ or teriyaki. I miss the BW3s that were order on your own. There was one up in Medina OH I used to go to that had an awesome setup in what looked like an old cracker barrel. $0.30 wing night and no waitresses unless you wanted beer. It was great. Now with waitresses its so slow I don't like going... as much. I don't like to go as much. I still like to go.

Come on Mr FSU, saturday night munchies?!? Make a run for the border just like in college! Its open til 2am at partcipating locations.

I'm not giving up pizza... I can't give up pizza... I love pizza and it loves me... God didn't make me lactose intolerant for a reason! :(

I think I'm in for 1.5x above 80 too. Greenslips have too many strings attached and a simpler system would be preffered. Would that be for reserve too? :D

Satch, have you ever seen Man vs Food (forget the earlier conversation and just roll with me here) but he did Vegas and here are some suggestions for you (forgive the wikipedia crap intermixed here):

Man vs. Food
Adam went to Las Vegas, Nevada, in early May 2009 to face off against fried chicken eggs Benedict at Hash House A-Go-Go and spicy crawfish at Hot'n'Juicy Crawfish.[16] This week's competition is the "Big Badass Burrito" challenge at the NASCAR Café in the Sahara Hotel and Casino.[6][17][18] The burrito is a 6-pound two-feet-long concoction packed with more than 5,000 calories of food. Over 140 people have tried it prior to Richman's attempt, but only two had finished it. Richman's challenge is to become the third person to complete the burrito in under 90 minutes.[19] Anybody who completes the challenge wins a "Conqueror" t-shirt and "lifetime access to the Sahara's roller coaster."[6][19] Ultimately, Adam failed, surrendering with only 1 pound of the burrito remaining, and for that he was forced to wear a small pink "Certified Weenie" t-shirt and get his picture posted on the café's "Weenie Wall of Shame". After taping for the challenge was complete, Richman spent an hour on a treadmill, telling the Las Vegas Review-Journal, "Being sedentary is incredibly uncomfortable. [...] [D]espite the fact that the first 10 minutes or 15 minutes on the treadmill might suck, it actually does alleviate a lot of pressure, and you feel better."[6] The Hash House A-Go-Go taping took place on Friday, May 8, and the NASCAR Café challenge was taped on Saturday, May 9.

I'm jaded and tend to side with fNWA on most opinions here, especially since our union is supporting the theft of fNWA 07-08 hires out of 3% of our 401k contribution regardless of the fact we have no pension.

However... Green slips are way better than 1.5x over 80 was under the fNWA contract in my opinion. I thought it wouldn't be, but it is. Green slips are not rare like the fNWA premium pay trips were. I'm doing way better under the DAL contract in regard to overtime than I ever could have under the NWA contract.

FtB,

It should include anyone who breaks 80 hours whether they are on a reserve or regular line. The only problem with it is reserve trips need to garner/earn the same amount of hours as regular trips. I've thought this for the last 20+ years but from contract to contract it never changes.:mad:

Denny

Reminds me of out and backs to College Station. We would go to Freebirds and if the student could eat the Super Monster and a Marble Slab for desert he got to sleep on the back half and i would fly.

Careful, you'll upset Carl Spackler talking like that. If you were meant to be a real airline pilot, you would have his DB or a real Delta DC. Instead, you are with the other 180 of us, a "unique" position. All I can say is, DFR.

Very well said.

Carl

Really?

Anyone ever tell you that you look a lot like a video poker machine?

Carl

Heyas Denny,

There were a couple of levels of "premium" at NWA:

1) There was "regular" premium pay. This was 1.5 for ALL credit above 80, and it didn't matter if it was reserve, regular or whatever. Once you ticked over 80, overtime started.

2) Then there were designated "premium pay" trips, VERY similar to the current GS system. These paid 1.5, even if you weren't over 80. If you WERE over 80, then they paid 1.5 x 1.5. Ka CHING!

3) There was voluntary and involuntary callout. You put your name into the computer, and you could designate what kind of trips you wanted. Voluntary callout paid 1.5, and again subject to another 1.5 over 80.

Our involuntary call out (IE inverse assignment) was extremely limited. Only those in the bottom %10 of the blockholders in any category (base, seat and AC, with a minumum of 5, but a maximum of 10 pilots) could be involuntarily called out, and it paid 2x (again subject to the premium at 80).

This really made for the best of all worlds. Unlike the current GS system, which really only favors those that live in base, this system "spread the wealth around", and permitted some long term arrangement of schedules to capitalize on overtime.

But it also provided local pilots some short call advantage by grabbing some premium trips that popped up, very similar to the current GS system. And man, if you went over 80 with them, it was REALLY worth your while.

THIS is the system we should have adopted.

Nu

Word on the street. Absolutely no more 747-400s. New JAL CEO put the brakes on the DAL - JAL alliance as of now. 65% chance that it is us. Possible comuter jump seat book in future. That's all for now. Tokoyo over and out.

As many have stated the best deals can fall apart at the last minute. If true, oh well. If not oh well. We just fly em.

Agreed. I just think that there are some pilots that do not beleive that we will get off the road even when it is needed. Convince them (the skeptical pilots) of that(willingness to abandon the current tacit) and support of the MEC goes through the roof. Just my .02

Huh. At NATCO yesterday I heard 8 more. Funny how the rumors fly.

that is just a clever disguise to preserve my web board anonymity. :D

I know he is a friend of yours BUT, as cheesy as he is he would fit in perfect at WN. Let them have him.

Well 90 crews does work out to about eight jets or four city pairs.

He is an actor, so I am sure the show went crazy with that. Who knows. Who cares.

Is 90 crews significant? What dot(s) am I missing?

To make the 1.5X above 80 work, you need to get rid of the cap or it just doesn't make sense to do it. I think we will see DALPA push for a more restrictive cap in 2012 making the 1.5X above 80 even more worthless. Going to 1.5X WS pay and keeping the cap may be the way to go. If PBS builds you a 65 hour line and you WS a trip at 1.5X pay, you would be better off than having 1.5X pay above 80 and no cap. If they leave WS pay at 1X pay, then I would prefer no cap and 1.5X pay above 80, but I don't think DALPA will ever attempt to remove that cap.

Well a certian 747 captain started a rumor to see how long it would take it to get back to him. Pretty bull sh-t thing to do. The asolutely comment came straight from R.A.'s mouth on 747 coming back from nrt to atl in the last couple of weeks. I would say that he probably knows what is going on..

More from the sports bar: 1. JAL apointing a new board and is done. THey will select code share partner by the end of the week. Will be out to the public 14-15 Feb. If DAL gets the alliance it will be the end of the hotel, the flight kitchen and most of our whole operation in NRT. JAL will do all South flying. It will be a big loss of flying for us. It may be more beneficial to the company in terms of revenue but will be a huge loss in flying to us. If we don't get it also bad news in that Jal will make haneda the new International hub to off set the narita airport and make it insignificant.

We are getting routes out of haneda to HNL, SEA, and LAX wheather we get the alliance or not.

So it seems that this news is well who knows good or bad. I prefer that our pilots and airplanes do the flying and we control things. Probably not the best thing for the company.??????

over and out

It has been known/assumed that based on their restructuring plan we would drop some the the "Beach Destinations." Problem with some of the statements you made is this:
Unless DAL has alternate financing for the 2+ billion they used those route authorities as collateral for, we need to keep using them to maintain the stated value. It would be difficult for us to find other collateral for two billion of debt.

As for the 744 rumor, who cares, we will need jets to fly some of those routes either way .

As for net positive or negative. I still say positive. Long term the added revenue is good for the corporation, it just better not cost pilot jobs.

Like I have been stating, the JAL deal is the lesser of the two evils when it comes to the long term effects on the NRT operation.

Also if they wait until next week, it will guarantee that the JV language between the unions and companies is complete. (just a guess)

No dots, just staffing requirements.

32% for DALS

Thank you for the update. What you write makes sense; that we would give the Japanese the flying based in Japan on narrow body jets and they would transfer to us the LR and ULR flying from our bases and focus cities. That saves Japanese jobs and improves Japanese profitability. Management frankly does not care who flies the airplanes, as long as they get a cut of ticket sales. (as demonstrated by DCI outsourcing) D-ALPA also seems to be primarily focused on jobs pilots in their positions aspire to.

Numbers wise the 777-300 is about the perfect airplane for the mission. The really perfect jet is the 787-900, since a downturn would not sting nearly as bad with that airplane's reduced capacity and operational costs. I kind of expect the 787 to do to the 747-4 and 777 about what the 767 did to all the 747's that used to fly the Atlantic.

Frankly, this Japan deal is unfortunate. Wonder if we will get more "furlough protection" and stagnation from the JV. If so, they'll come out and state my fall prognostications were correct ... we'll see.

We have been shrinking at 5% to nearly 20% annually for at least the last 5 years. I thought post bankruptcy would be a reversal of that trend ... . Guess the entire industry has been contracting ... it would take some number crunching to see if we've shrunk less than everyone else during this time period. I think ceding a single job to AirTran, WN, or DCI is a mistake.

See ACL comments re: slots. Slots are slots. If we trade short runway for an equal number of long runway slots that is a gain in crews and flying. Or are short slots valued less than longer one and we are only maintaining the cost value of the slots not a numerical one? If it is neutral or positive on the slots do we not gain flying? LR and URL is doubled crewed vs. single on NB beach flying = more crews no? I think the status of the NRT hotel is the least of our concerns.

What is more relevant is what happens to these shifted routes once JAL is healthy and we no longer need the slots to finance debt?

In response to the first part, spot on. We need to maintain the collateral value of the "slots" as backing of more than two billion in debt. That is a brick wall for our company. I agree a net gain with equal or slightly less departures due to manning requirements.

In response to the bold section:
DAL wants the money not necessarily the operation of said route. So the devil is in the details. The benefit to us is they need to maintain some sort of presence in Asia, so I see much of the flying we get to stay with us. I would be surprised to see us agree to do the flying short term, and willfully give it back at a later date. The only reason to do that is that we would "own" the gained slots in to Haneda.

As we have debated on here and in person, there is going to be a "correction" to the markets etc. What the political element in DC does will determine the next cycle and how fast it happens.

With the above in context, even if they do the politically correct action, the recovery will be less than two years or so,. Deep dive and then a steady increase, at least I hope. Point is that once again the cycle will be too quick to break even on mass furloughs. I have been wrong before, and I may be wrong on this, but I do not see it happening.

I agree that this is a house of cards and all of it will collapse if we do not see sustained job growth in all sectors of this economy. Jobs=money=people willing to travel. Without it we need to stay flat in growth, which complicates other matters.

Based on the current Open Skies quota of 4(?) US based carrier HND slots that would have to be significantly restructured, which also raises the question of what impact does a DAL/JAL deal have on the Open Skies agreement?

As I see it, We get JAL, Open Skies is a go, if not it will have to go back to the drawing board.

I know the quota is four, and that is for all US airlines. My curiosity lies in the probability that we may "use" some JAL slots in to Haneda under a long term, binding agreements. (until amendments of the Open Skies Accord can be modified) Just a shot to left field, but I cannot see DAL doing a deal that is very one sided, even if they get a decent cut of the money. Without protections et al, it would allow JAL to switch sides again, and truly leave DAL's fanny in the wind.

While this may very well be true, it would be interesting to see a comparison as to how that money was distributed. At the risk of sounding like an obama progressive, I'm betting that the biggest chunk of that money went to a smaller number of guys mostly clustered at the top of each category. Being that I am now and for a long time will be a junior puke, I'm not so sure that I wouldn't prefer the NWA way... 'cause it IS all about me... :cool::D

I think more important then if we get JAL or not is what happens to the economy in the far east. At the moment its horrible and yields are off far more there then anywhere else in the world. No one is making money there. If there is not a turnaround fast Delta is going to be forced into a major pullout and possible drop the Narita hub. If that happens we lose a lot of jobs. The entire Narita hub is now on the chopping block. A repeat of the Frankfurt hub debacle is now a real possiblility absent a strong return in yields.

Thank you for the fear mongering talking points. Big difference between NRT and FRA. We must have JAL and what ever deal we get or be scared, very, very scared. :eek: Why did DAL and NWA merge? It wasn't for FAR and FNT. Do you think RA didn't anticipate the results of the already underway global economic downturn when we merged?

The true FRA story:

There are some similarities but many differences in comparing FRA and NRT. First off, part of Pan Am's success with the Frankfurt hub was the IGS (internal German service) operation to West Berlin. That flying was split by the Allied Powers, and Pan Am was the designated US carrier, so this helped feed its operation in Frankfurt which was really supporting flights to major US cities and had some beyond flying rights (Cairo, Karachi, Bombay) but they were not unlimited like NRT. TWA also had some limited beyond rights as well. That IGS operation was sold to Lufthansa around the reunification of Germany in 1989 just prior to the DAL purchase of PAA Atlantic operation. The sale placed a large hole in the PAA revenue generation from FRA as the IGS was a very profitable venue. In truth DAL purchased something for greater than its value, when this became clear FRA was shutdown.

Second and a more significant difference is that in Europe we are dealing with many different countries acting as one nation through the EU. In Japan we are allowed to serve other countries through a combination of the 'beyond rights' and our respective agreements with the 3rd nation (ie we fly SFO - NRT - SIN, we have an Open skies agreement with Singapore and 'beyond rights' with Japan allowing us to sell local traffic between NRT - SIN). If you were to apply this to JFK-FRA-FCO, the FRA-FCO would be continuing service because selling traffic on that segment would be considered 'cabotage' to the EU nations. This would place an even greater drain on revenue generation.

As you can see comparing FRA to NRT would simply be comparing apples to oranges.

Don't let the fact confuse your agenda :rolleyes:

I agree with that assessment for the most part. Due to the nature and value of the Fifth Freedom Rights absent a Open-Skies Agreement that is ratified buy both governments, we need to do everything we can to keep that hub operational. JAL is key to flow to our flights. It offers more insulation. Also failing in NRT also will cause a need to restructure debt that was very trying to refinance.

ACL,
You do realize that the SLOT VALUE can be maintained IF transferred to a JV partner (JAL). The routes are being flown, AND you are getting revenue. If the value has been maintained, then the loans are not in jeopardy of being devalued and being subject to more money being injected to satisfy the bankers.

That is the fear of almost every DAL pilot that is paying attention to this venture.

Given the overlap between our Boards of Directors, yes, I think they say NWA's route structure was eroding. At the same time I think they saw Delta needing airplanes that they could not afford, along with a lot of debt. Marriage made in heaven, assembled in Minneapolis, planted in Atlanta. We are the children of our parents four, or fifth marriage, and both parents are looking for work. Hey at least it isn't Haiti and our parents were good looking.

Kinda amazing how rumors of hiring and two Asian bases evaporated into "run for your lives." Instead, a more moderate approach is called for. It is never as bad, or as good, as people make out in this business.

In the mean time I need to lose ten pounds and learn more music from the last decade to prepare for my backup, backup, gig. ACL65's got percussion. I was hoping to get him in a band in the islands. A beat box is a whole lot easier to transport than a full trap kit and PA.

Utter nonsense. You have no evidence of anything that you've just said.

This is you returning to the slamming of all things NWA. In the world of sailingfun, the following items are the worst things any airline could ever be saddled with:

Asia routes
747's
787's
A330's
DC-9's
757's (if they've ever had a red tail).
DTW base
MEM base
SEA base
MSP base
Any pilot who is not originally hired by Delta Air Lines

You continue to underwhelm.

Carl

Carl - don't be so hard on yourself. We like the 757's, as long as they can be modified with winglets and reasonably sized ACARS printers.

So anyone know when FedEx is going to start pulling pilots out of their pool?