Very disappointing that you could agree with any part of that assessment. Everything I read talks about how Asia is the future of growth in the world, while Europe...not so much. Other airlines would kill to be in the position of DAL post merger with NWA.

Unbelievable.

Carl

The total amount of revenue goes down though as we will be sharing it. That will cause the intrinsic value of the slots to decline.

And all the NWA guys are really good dudes...right Bar? :rolleyes:

Carl

Sailing,

I recently read from some base notes on the Management Base Meetings the "The Pacific is coming back" - Phil Lindsey.

2 Billions in loans are backed with the NRT slots used as collateral.

The 787 order is more important that ever.... a plane that is 767 (300/400) in size that is 20% cheaper to operate. The 767's problem is that it needs the RANGE of a 787.

The REAL possibility will be JAL doing ALL south and west flying from NRT.

Sorry sailing, but I have to agree with FLY4Hire on your post. I have stated that a JV with JAL might not be good for DAL pilots, but good for DAL the corporation. I expect OUR UNION to look out for pilots interests first and foremost.

Hey Carl,

Gunga galunga... gunga, gunga-lagunga.

On your death bed, you'll pop up like an ice cube out of the tray and go "damn, that Bucking Bar was right !"

Aren't you paying attention Model Citezen, if it was NWA...it sucks.

Carl

ACL,
The key is profitabliity......if the slot transfer allows the route to be flown and make a profit..... its not what you earn, its what you keep. You need this airline to be profitable. If they can do that on a lower revenue stream, they will. They will show the bankers that the slot value is still high since it is now generating a profit for the corporation. They might even be able to talk the bankers out of MORE MONEY. (That is a joke)

Carl read what I was saying.

I agree 100% that the future growth is Asia. I do not think that DAL is as short sighted to pull out of the NRT hub if we do not get the JAL deal. What I am agreeing with is this:
Yields are way down. Waaaay down! If the JAL deal fails, we will have open skies likely fail. We then have to deal with our Fifth Freedom rights and the NRT as we do now. Not a bad thing but not a good thing either. If the economy tanks further in that part of the world, I agree with his assesment that we may have to cut bone, that bone would be the lion's share of the NRT hub. (You start cutting non-core business just like the body stops blood flow to the extremities as it fights to survive)

If the economy improves, open skies does not happen, we do not get JAL, we will be looking at slots to markets ANA and JAL will serve out of Haneda. Not good for the hub and there is only so long we will play that game, even with Fifth Freedom Rights.

We get JAL, and Open Skies happens; We are looking at reallocating who does what, but the slots we use will remain about level. Maybe a little less than now, but they will be long haul flights. We have sustainable flow to these flights and the ability to stay in position for grow as Asia grows.

Scare tactics followed closely by fear mongering. Talk of impending disaster.
This from two of our supposedly "plugged-in" guys.
Sounds to me like somebody's talking points for justifying more scope concessions.

This week's "Special MEC Meeting" may be worse than we thought.

I was not implying the Association lying prostrate.

Maybe, and I agree anything is possible, but the corporation of DAL cannot agree to a on sided deal that only offers a money stream without protecting its long term interests.

News flash: yields are down everywhere. But things are slowly starting to come back. Everything I read shows Asia yeilds coming back for ALL airlines. Europe is coming back very slowly, as well as South America.

With this logic, management would also be "considering" pulling out of Europe, South America and Africa. This way we could stick to the real high yield domestic passengers here in the USA.

Unbelievable dude. You really need to proof read stuff before you send it out.

Carl

Carl,

Yes I have heard some very vocal people and read what they think. The battle should always be for the silent majority who read these posts and start to ask their reps or other reps what the real story is. I want the best of BOTH pilots contracts in our 2012 and beyond contracts. There are things NWA did that were better AND there are things in the DAL contract is better. When Republic merger with NWA, the NWA jumpseat program was non existent. (an example) We (as a pilot group) should be discussing our pilot contracts, pros and cons from each premerger group and trying to achieve best in class for the pilots.

I know that pilots who are closed minded, or do not care to debate issues and summarily reject ideas from where they came from, I DO NOT WANT DOING UNION WORK FOR ME.

Very well stated.

Carl

Ok. Someone please help me. Didn't DALPA support DAL going after this JV? Now the rumor is that JAL may take over all south flying and DAL pilots may lose jobs? Is that right?

Yeah, but it is like RJ's, it would be so much worse if we did not agree to the outsourcing.

Key word is rumor.

Reality is that it is just that time of the month where the usual suspects have to vent about how truly awful the assets of NWA were.

Carl

Cute Carl.

Little Dramatic. We do not have the same Situation in other parts of the world. AMS is similar but very different.

The Japanese are protectionists and are trying to effectively lock most of the competition out of Haneda. That is what makes this very very different.

I am not trying to fear monger. It is the reality. Our government has agreed to this Open Skies that is hardly open. It is fairly one sided. We as a employees of a "For Profit Business" need to understand that. I did not say agree to whatever is thrown our way, what I said was understand it.

I do proof read Sir, and understand what is going on. The one-sided effect of this whole mess without Open-Skies and the JAL deal means is unfair competition is ugly.

I agree 100% and I want what works best for the group as a whole. There are many things I liked about the NWA PWA. I think much of it needs to be looked at. I would LOVE to bid a reserve line only category on a 330 etc as I live in base.

If we lost any jobs as a result of this, I'm not sure who I would be mad at more. DAL or DALPA.


How do we go from JAL parking all of their widebodys and us taking over to JAL taking over all of our South flying. For those of you who don't know, the South flying is a major part of NRT. Who started that rumor?

I agree with that. Now that there is not a constant positive flow of information on this issue, and there are one or two posts about an opposite direction, everyone seems to think things changed. They have not. It is just the lack of constant confirmation that is scaring ppl.

FWIW, those that know more about this than you or I are stating that "SOME" of the Beach Destinations would be moved to the JAL operation and we would takeover some of their ULH stuff. I was told that not all of the beach stuff would be gone.

Devil is in the details. We will just have to wait to see what the actual deal is. Until then it is just an educated guess by matching up the data points.

You mean...there's a difference?

Carl

What's is the "beach stuff?" I don't need the rumor beach stuff. But, when you say 'beach stuff," is that Guam and Siapan or Singapore and Hong Kong?

Carl..you have a pm

You know normally I would try to come up with a funny comeback. But, the way things are going, I am beginning to wonder and it's not funny. I'll reserve judgment, for now.....

On this post, no cuteness was intended. Others posted this "sky is falling on the NWA" stuff based on the argument of poor Asian yields. You agreed with the assessment. You shouldn't have agreed, and now you post this other stuff to deflect attention.

I know you are a budding union official, but I must tell you that lately your statements have included some typical political leanings. Example, saying that this thread is probably done because some internet character says management might be listening. Then others here (including me) slam this guy for attempting to squelch debate. Then I slam anyone who could have even been remotely affected by a concern that management could be listening. Then you post that the thread will live forever. This all in about 1 hours' time.

I'm only interested in union officials who have core beliefs and are not so easily moved by the winds. I'm probably not alone.

Carl

ACL,
The "devil" is in the BLOCK HOURS flown AND THE QUALITY of those hours. DAL has a great deal of debt that they have to pay down, all the while paying for new terminals and a Billion dollar customer service redo. If you have a debt laden company that cannot afford to purchase new aircraft, you can do a JV with a company that will provide lift, feed and you reap 85% of the benefits with no addition capital purchases of additional aircraft. NWA pilots have seen this movie before. It was the near bankrupcy in 1992/93. We say the birth of the NWA/KLM code share. We have seen refurbished DC9's and used DC10's to provide lift for a company that could not afford to refleet the airline. NWA got lucky that fuel was so cheap for so long. Airline managers are historically followers, not leaders. Look to history to see how they are going to play the game.

I responded earlier...did you not get it?

Carl

We can debate "what if's" all day long. The thing is this is all speculation, educated guesses or whatever you want to call it. But we really don't/won't know jack until a deal with JAL is announced one way or the other. Before we get all worked up about what may or may not happen we need to see the deal. The best thing we can do now is contact our Reps before this special MEC meeting and give them our opinions and feedback. Who knows, maybe this meeting is not about this topic but it never hurts to provide your opinon and feedback.

Denny

Very good post and history did repeat itself with the merger with Delta. What scares me about this JAL deal is the active involvement of their politicians and government money. Who knows what the constraints are? Who knows what the regulatory environment is? When they told American and Delta to keep their money we were placed on notice that they were calling the shots and we could keep our input to ourselves. They will TAKE what they want.

In the mean time, our national political leadership continues to be inept as it has been, well since Bush Sr. was in office.Denny - you are right, but our Reps have not been told anything yet and by the time they are told, it will over, all but for the shouting.

Feedback implies there was a signal to initiate the loop. In our case, they give us nothing and ridicule speculation. So, we'll get nothing ... and like it!

Man Caddyshack can provide puns for any web board discussion, can't it?

I agree Denny. I will wait until the deal is actually a deal. But, it is a little disheartening to me that anyone would be resigned to the possibility of furloughs as a result of a DAL JAL JV after our union signed off on it.

I would hope to see "we had better not furlough" rather than "we might have to furlough." Know what I mean?


New K



PS: Don't work out and watch the ladies tennis while your wife is watching. She will catch on after a while. (After you refuse to watch mens tennis) :D

I guess my point is.........at this point the line pilot is along for the ride. Good, bad, or indifferent we are along for the ride. We just have to hope the driver knows what he is doing. We, via DALPA, can try to provide some direction but the decision on which way to go does not lie with us.

Denny

Well ... we have some furlough protection expiring this fall. Guess we can promise to be good boys and girls in gratitude for getting to fly the right seat of MD88's and DC9's for much less than our friends who did not get hired, who are "stuck" as senior Captains on RJ's.

Que Joe Merchant with salt and lemon juice in three, two, one ... he always shows up right about the time the discussion turns in this direction.

New K,

I agree 100%! By the way, womens tennis is not my thing...........now womens beach volleyball................:D

Denny

Oh, yes! I am with you on the volleyball. It's just not covered enough for me. Cable has an all NFL station, an all MBB station, but no all womens volleyball station. Go figure. :( :D

Can you point me to the place where I can read about what our union signed off on?

A little disheartening to say the least...all these strawmen and righteous indignation being built up.:(

Another inciteful comment by Captain Courageous...:p

[QUOTE=Bucking Bar;755150]Well ... we have some furlough protection expiring this fall.

How so???

Denny, I'm using your post as a springboard, as you've got the major points down.

But it's all DALPA's fault that all the beach flying is going to be flown by a new JV with JAL subcontracted furloughed DAL pilots with flow through rights to ASA after the NRT hub is shut down so JAL can feed us through HND with the 6 allowed total frequencies, but we're getting JAL's cargo division with a B scale...

Sheesh...:rolleyes:

1. There is no JAL deal. If there were, there would have to be SEC disclosures.
2. There is a US government Open Skies deal that could be very bad for DAL.
3. Somebody moved our cheese. Adapt to reality.